Me and Guild not off to a good start!!

[gilded]

Al, Joe and Jeff,

Thank you so much for the kind words. It always takes me longer to write stuff than I think and I appreciate if some of the things I have learned over the last 40 years are of interest and assistance to other people.

I think I know enough about Adirondack to have an opinion, but there are a whole lot of people who know more. I had a '57-8 Martin D28 with a ruined top about 10-12 years ago. My luthier re-topped it with Adirondack that had been seasoned for about five years. We measured the bracing of a '37 D18 and substituted that for the '50's bracing. Think about it, 40 year old Brazilian and five year old Adirondack. It was a cannon! A cannon with a small neck, so I sold it!

I've owned a few prewar Martins (000, 00 an 0 18s mostly) and a '37 Reissue D18 Authentic model, plus around 10 prewar Gibsons. I've owned several mandos with Adirondack tops. I've played one mando signed by Lloyd Loar and a couple of '20's Fern model F-5's. I've played Gilchrist, Kiminitzer and Monteleone Mandos.

That sounds like a lot of instruments, but if you space them over 40 years, it ain't that much. Most of those Adirondack guitars and mandos sounded really good, some didn't.

Again, I used to think that Adirondack was the Bees Knees. Now I think that any good guitar is the Bees Knees, whether it's Adirondack, or Sitka, or Mahogany or Rosewood, or Northern Maple or European Spruce or Unobtanium, etc. This really is the Golden Age of Guitars, grab a good one and play it for 20 years or so and pass it on to the next guy or gal!

Later, Harry

 

[mcduffnw]

HI All...

Just to be clear...it is Red Spruce...not "Adirondack" Spruce. Martin called it Adirondack because that was one of the main areas...the Adirondack Mountains...that they used to originally source it from...and it became a great "marketing' name to call the wood...but...in reality...the true name is Red Spruce...and it grows from as far north as Maine...I believe...and as far south as West Virginia. Luthier John Arnold, over on the UMGF is pretty much the undisputed king of knowledge about Red Spruce. He and his fellow luthier friend Ted Davis were the ones who really helped begin the re-havesting and re-using (for guitar tops) of Red Spruce back in the early 90's.

Best Regards
duff

 

[Ridgemont]

Luthier John Arnold, over on the UMGF is pretty much the undisputed king of knowledge about Red Spruce. He and his fellow luthier friend Ted Davis were the ones who really helped begin the re-havesting and re-using (for guitar tops) of Red Spruce back in the early 90's.

Interesting to know. I do read John Arnold's posts regularly.

 

[Russell Letson]

I've posted this kind of response more than once, but it might be worth it to include a mini-version again in this context:

The sound of a guitar (or any instrument) is the result of many factors, of which variety of wood is only one--and not necessarily the most significant one. Gilded's brief overview of the changes in build formulas matches what I understand to have gone on and points to the significance of the things you can't see from the outside. Structural-design elements like bracing, bridge plate, and top thickness can easily trump materials choices. And as significant as top-wood variety can be, its contribution can be swamped by sub-optimal structural choices. Ask any competent, experienced luthier and you'll hear the same thing. (At least, that's where I learned this stuff.)

A different version of this sermon, with an illustrative anecdote, is over here:

http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...rass-jubilee&p=1599223&viewfull=1#post1599223

 

[adorshki]

I've posted this kind of response more than once, but it might be worth it to include a mini-version again in this context:

Another good one, truly a nice "nutshell summary" of the stuff I've seen here over the years myself, but never hurts to repeat for "newbies", and no insult intended by that name either. :wink:
One detail I remember that hasn't been specifcially mentioned is that generally Red Spruce was supposed to be "closer grained" that Sitka, indicative of denser and therefore "better" tonewood. The reference to "slower- growing" about Red Spruce made me realize that's likely what made for the generally closer grain of Red Spruce.
It might also expalin why a good piece of Sitka may be more resonant than a bad piece of Red..
In fact, isn't the whole "grading process" really based on aesthetic evaluations of grain formation? So that a piece of "AAA Spruce" really is more likely to have tighter grain than an everyday piece of Red spruce?

 

[gilded]

You know guys, you can call it Red Spruce all you want, but the popular term of Adirondack Spruce has been used for a long time, likely more than 100 years, not only by Martin, but by Piano manufacturers as well and maybe, even 'regular people'. A friend of mine found a reference to Adirondack Spruce in a speech made to annual meeting of the Piano Manufacturers Association of America, in 1922! Oh, and somebody call Old Standard Wood Company in Northern Arkansas and tell them to stop using the internet name of adirondackspruce.com! Maybe they should call their customers (Collings, Huss and Dalton, Ellis Mandolins, etc.) and tell them about the awful mix-up!

What's in a name? Let's compare it to Sitka Spruce. Picea sitchensis grows from Southern Alaska to Northern California, so where does the name Sitka come from?

'Sitka' was a Native American term for the 'People Outside of Baranoff Island' (contraction is Sheet-ka) where the Russian Traders landed in 1799. The Russians built a settlement called New Archangel (which was quickly burned down in 1802). When the Americans took over, they renamed it Sitka. So, they not only appropriated the land, the appropriated the name that the Tlinget Peoples gave themselves to show they were displaced from the land in the first place. Pretty Sweet, huh? It's like you're the house band in a club and the Mob takes over the Club, throws you out, then keeps the name of the Band! Sheet-ka, indeed!

But somehow, the name Sitka Spruce appropriated from indigenous peoples in a small area in South Eastern Alaska is okay, but Adirondack Spruce isn't? I think I'll go read about Telecasters....

By the way, Duff, if you're still reading this, I played one of Ted Davis' mandos back in the '90's and also bought some, ah, 'spruce' that Ted harvested (the wood, 3 top sets, was from a pile of wood that the Davis mando owner bought directly from Mr. Davis. I still have one set left).

All the best, boys, all the best, HH