In the process of grabbing this f-212, thoughts?

Rambozo96

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Gibsons and Martins were pretty dodgy in the '70s, especially Gibsons. I owned a '76 Martin d28 that had a misaligned bridge, and I could never get the intonation correct. After I sold it, I swore I'd never buy another Martin, and all I can say is that I'm glad I don't follow my own advice! As overbuilt as Guilds were in the '70s (my D50 is a tank), they were still the best of the lot.
That’s the part of the heavier 70’s/80’s Guilds that perplexes me because those 70’s Gibsons I tried were about as heavy as my 86’ D-25 but 9 times out of 10 the D-25 smokes them. I don’t know when the heavy builds began at westerly because my 74’ D-35 seems to be average dreadnaught weight to me but most heavier builds I owned like various EKO’s, a low rent Kay Hummingbird copy, a Giannini Craviola and some no name Dove copy were as heavy as my D-25 and sounded bland with almost no projection.
 

dreadnut

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Neither my 45-year-old D25M or my 33-year-old D15 have any bellying, nor does the 22-year-o[d DV52 I gave to my son.

And they all have been strung with medium phosphor bronze strings.
 

twocorgis

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"No belly, no tone" refers to guitars that were built with an arched (or bellied) top, as Bourgeois and other makers design and build them.

A very, very slight amount of bellying may be acceptable, but in the main a guitar that was built with a flat-top and develops a belly is a guitar that is in need of repair.

Especially with Guilds, where the bellying is invariably accompanied by bridge lift. A flat-bottomed bridge will not stay glued to a top that is rounded.

Bellying also leads to the saddle being improperly angled and the intonation being off.

Correct me if I'm wrong Glenn, but I seem to remember Guild telling us on one of the tours that all their acoustics did have a slight radius on the top. Of course, cases of extreme bellying can lead to a litany of problems, but I don't think that's what Dana was talking about in the article I posted.

And yes, my '97 Slope D-140 does have a little belly, and I have reset the neck once about a year and a half ago. Thanks to the bolt on neck, it took three days, and only cost $175, including the new saddle!
 
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Rayk

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Kinda looked like the bridge was lifting and could explain the sinking between it and the sound hole but hard to tell not great pics .

Many guitars now are making radius tops which some might get confused with bellying obviously not older

F212 project guitar ? Tell them all the things wrong with it then offer less then the eBay listing .
One thing that bugs me in the eBay listing is it says it has a rebuilt neck . Hmmm wrong word possibly?
Maybe it’s the pain pills again ? Lol
 

Cougar

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...well damn, thanks for the heads up on that listing. Gonna pass now.
Glad you caught that. Yeah, that was overpriced. As I recall, I got a 2012 New Hartford F212XLCE in near mint condition for more like $1,200. I know -- different guitar and all, but still....
 

cupric

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I shared an eBay listing for a pickguard on the eBay reverb thread earlier today. The seller has tons of parts, etc. He is located in Martha's Vineyard. This is the same seller as this guitar. His eBay name differs from his reverb name. This same guitar is in his eBay store.
 

wileypickett

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Correct me if I'm wrong Glenn, but I seem to remember Guild telling us on one of the tours that all their acoustics did have a slight radius on the top. Of course, cases of extreme bellying can lead to a litany of problems, but I don't think that's what Dana was talking about in the article I posted.

This would have been at New Hartford -- I attended three of the four factory tours there. (Loved 'em -- thanks Chaz!)

I can't speak to which, if any, Guild flattops were radiused. (Does anyone know?) But if they did buld a radius into the tops of any models, I suspect they would have had to make bridges that matched the radius.

Makers like Dana build the radius into their tops and, like makers of archtop guitars, they make the bottoms of their bridges curved to match the radius of the top. The bridge and the top are coupled.

A guitar that was built as a flattop but develops bellying has come "uncoupled," and when the top becomes bellyed, more often than not you also get bridge lift. I've installed Bridge Doctors on at least a dozen such Guilds over the years. Most of them sounded better (some of them MUCH better) once the tops were flat again. (There were a few that I couldn't discern a difference in sound one way or the other; none sounded worse.)

However, all of them played better / intonated better once the problem had been addressed.

Based on my limited experience the notion that a bellyed flattop guitar sounds better than not doesn't hold up.
 

twocorgis

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Based on my limited experience the notion that a bellyed flattop guitar sounds better than not doesn't hold up.

My take on Dana's article was that guitars that are built light enough to develop a little belly, are also built light enough to sound good too. I have six guitars that are very light builds; My two Orpheums, my Martin D18DC and 000-17SM, my Bourgeois Slope D, and my Gibson WM45. And I don't think it's a coincidence that they're the best sounding guitars I own.
 

portsider

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I can’t tell you what to do but I’ll tell ya what I think . First you have some doubts that tells me don’t do it through friends and family but that’s me .
For the few extra dollars and piece of mind knowing Reverb will back you up that’s the way I’d go .
Though my F212 is fairly newish I love it . Hopefully this one will be for you with all that mojo .
Best of luck with her . 😊
Oh and the other folks say . Lol
I agree.
 

beecee

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Funny thing about low saddles is that my 2010 saddle went from good to low the first time my luthier set it up after I bought it is 2013, and I was was crestfallen at the time. But it has not moved one iota from then until now, and could stay that way for a very long time. It's OK, because I don't see myself ever selling it.

Lucky for me my D-40 was spot on out of the case!

But at my age I'll probably be surrounded by mahogany by the time the neck needs work.
 

chazmo

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rbrcbr,

Good luck with this. This guitar does look pretty nice, but it's definitely a bit of a crap shoot with a 12-string this old. It's good that you know the history, and it doesn't seem like the reverb seller is holding back anything. To me the price seems a little high, but that's not necessarily a problem. It'd certainly be a gem to have one like this in the fold. Again, good luck!
 

kostask

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All so called"flat top" guitars have a radiused top. This is done for strength reasons. The radius does vary from builder to builder, and can vary from 12 to 30 foot raidus. Guitar backs are also radiused, and the radius for the back is usually larger for the back than the top. A guitar without a radius is either a bad design, or it is an indication of a guitar lacking humidity. On a well designed guitar, some bridge belly is to be expected; if the belly is not there, it indicates an overly thick top, overbracing, or again, lack of humidity.
 
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wileypickett

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All so calledn"flat top" guitars have a radiused top. This is done for strength reasons. The radius does vary from builder to builder, and can vary from 12 to 30 foot raidus. Guitar backs are also radiused, and the radius for the back is usually larger for the back than the top. A guitar without a radius is either a bad design, or it is an indication of a guitar lacking humidity. On a well designed guitar, some bridge belly is to be expected; if the belly is not there, it indicates an overly thick top, overbracing, or again, lack of humidity.

No argument.

But we're not talking about guitars with a radius built into the design -- or at least that's not where this discussion began.

We were talking about an older guitar (1964) that may have developed bellying beyond the tolerances built into the design, and if so, such a guitar, like this F112, will likely need to be repaired, adjusted -- whatever word you want to use.

Dana acknowldeges in his article that guitars with lighter builds (and Guilds from this era were built light) will sound great for many years, but will need periodic adjustments and will eventually fail. (One boutique luthier makes his guitars with the assumpton that they will not last for much more than 20 years, but will sound amazing during that time.)

Norman Blake, in his "no belly / no tone" comment was referring to his vintage Martin six-string, which has a radiused top built into the design. He wasn't talking about a guitar that had developed a bellying *problem*.

What we often see on older Guilds, and especially on 12-strings, is bellying of the top beyond what is tolerable, which often leads to a depression around the soundhole area and, due to the way Guild designed their bridges, bridge lift. This will affect playability and intonation.

The advice given to "rbrcbr," who was concerned about bellying, was that he needn't worry about it or that any bellying was a good thing.

I'm all for enabling, but I don't consider that good advice! Without actually seeing the guitar it's impossible to know how pronounced, or not, the problem may be.

My advice, rather, is to take those "don't worry about it" / "bellying is good" comments with a grain of salt, and to consider the possibility that if you buy the guitar, you may discover that it needs repair or adjustment.

Considering the age of the guitar, and the fact that it's a 12-string and will have been under 220+ pounds of string tension much of its life, it would be unusual it it didn't need some work.
 
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wileypickett

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Isn't it priced too high

People appear to think so -- it's been up for a while with no bites.

I'd be curious to see it, but though the seller is on my side of MA, they're on the island of Chilmark, which involves a five-hour round-trip drive and a ferry boat ride!
 
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