I'll take the bait... ES-335 vs. Starfire IV sales

[jte]

"I'll take the bait. Start a new topic and tell us about it."

From the thread about converting an SFIV harp tailpiece to a stop-bar, where I said we sold more ES-335s than Starfire IVs, and mentioned it was a whole 'nother thread...

I managed a guitar store from '77 - '88, and was a dealer for both Guild and Gibson (and Martin, Ovation, Takamine, Fender, Washburn, Yamaha, Norman, etc.). The owner of the store and I were both huge fans of Guild guitars and not so much fans of Gibson guitars. And we were especially dismissive of Gibson's arrogant approach to business and their blindness to the needs of dealers.

But the point of the comment was that because Guild has ALWAYS suffered from ineffective marketing, the Gibson name sold more guitars than the sound of the guitars ever would. We had a Gibson Dove and a Guild D-44 and a serious customer who was going back and forth between the two of them. He played them both back and forth for a long time, the owner of the store and I played them for him while he stood back and listened, etc. This went on for about three weeks. He finally said that even though the Guild sounded better and played better, and was lest money too, he was going with the Gibson because he always wanted a Gibson. Now that was a Guild acoustic where they at least had some market presence and some reputation.

Trying to sell a Starfire IV in that environment was just about impossible. Objectively, the Guild had a more stable neck, a better retail price, and much more consistency. In the earlier thread I related that in that 11 year span of comparing EVERY ES-3X5 to every Starfire IV, there was ONE Gibson that was truely an amazing guitar (especially through a an old chocolate Tolex Fender Pro-Reverb (1x15) we had). Most of them were at best mediocre, and a couple were just not that good, especially considering the price. But the Starfires were consistently excellent guitars. And for an American-made guitar with a lifetime warranty (that they actually honored on the few occasions we had to use it), the price was wonderful. But we sold a few used SF-IVs and about two new ones in that period.

The thing is that so many guitarists buy with their eyes not their ears. Selling Guilds is ALWAYS a sale- very very few people walk into a guitar store actually LOOKING for a Guild, and many STILL have the impression (as a local older guitar salesman told people back in the '70s) that they're inferior Gibsons. The guy at Miller's Music in town (the long-time established music store where the sales staff wore ties and the only Les Paul they had in stock at a time was locked in a glass case) told people that Guilds were Gibson seconds- that Gibson sent them to the Guild plant for new headstocks if they didn't meet Gibson standards (sorta failed to explain the vastly different construction, but it was the '70s and people didn't know stuff about guitars). And some folks believed that junk...

So, now after at least three changes of ownership since I left retail in '88, Guild is STILL struggling against that market bias. And people STILL buy with their eyes instead of their ears...

I think it was David Byrne who sang "... same as it ever was..."

John

 

[fronobulax]

Thanks. It is good to be reminded that there is sadly a long tradition of undervaluing Guilds and not just a problem with the current ownership.

 

[idealassets]

It appears amongst Nashsville musicians that Gibson is synonamous with country music. So I can see what's in a brand.

One problem that seems to occur is: only after nearly a year on LTG have I discoverd the different models of Guild, and why you might want a particular model, and I am still learning.

Whereas in less time I know why you would play a Gibson Les Paul, ES335, SG, J200, F45, or F50. Unfortunately not every guitar player is that much of a connosuir to be able to distinguish the suttle differences in $2000+ guitars.

But nearly every guitar player knows who plays what guitar model, and what sound they get from it, and then save up and go buy that guitar.

 

[Zelja]

Thanks for the insight jte. It really is interesting how people are slaves to some pre-conceived, & often erroneous, notions. It sems a lot of people don't trust themselves to be able to distinguish quality so fall back on brand recognition. I can understand young players & non-professionals falling into this trap (I probably have for a long time too) but it doesn't explain why so many really good players also seem to stick wth the name brands although there are so many alternatives around, which are often better & less expensive.

I have a few Gibson style guitars - a '80 Ibanez Artist A200 (335 style), a Hamer Korina Jr (LP Jr style) & an Orville (Gibson Japan) LP - all great guitars & I no longer have any desire for an actual Gibson. I had a '66 SG which I sold because it wasn't doing it for me. I have sold off a few "name" guitars in the last few years because they just weren't that great ('81 Ricky 330 & '74 Gretsch Rocjet) or because the neck didn't suit ('77 tele deluxe). I still have a couple of Fenders - an American fat tele & Japan Jazzmaster but these days I look outside the box for guitar purchases. Guild & Hamer are great value (at least used) & are generally great intstruments. Having to buy sight unseen as I generally do, I trust these brands over Gibson quality any day.

 

[fronobulax]

why so many really good players also seem to stick wth the name brands although there are so many alternatives around, which are often better & less expensive.

Some folks are always on the hunt for something different or better. But if you are not a gearhead then there is no reason not to find something that works and stick with it. So if the first instrument that "worked" was one of the "big brands" then why change?

 

[AlohaJoe]

He finally said that even though the Guild sounded better and played better, and was lest money too, he was going with the Gibson because he always wanted a Gibson. John

That's just sad. On the other hand, the lemmings leave more space for the rest of us.

 

[GAD]

He finally said that even though the Guild sounded better and played better, and was lest money too, he was going with the Gibson because he always wanted a Gibson. John

That's just sad. On the other hand, the lemmings leave more space for the rest of us.

Would it have been sad if the Gibson was a better guitar and he chose the Guild because he always wanted one? That's exactly what I did. Didn't hurt that the Starfire was 1/3 the price of the Gibson, but this was one of the few ES-335s that I'd ever been impressed with. I just had always wanted a Guild.

 

[Zelja]

Some folks are always on the hunt for something different or better. But if you are not a gearhead then there is no reason not to find something that works and stick with it. So if the first instrument that "worked" was one of the "big brands" then why change?

Fair enough & there's also the issue of availability - some of the lesser known & arguable better (or ta least better value) brands, just aren't easily available, especially to try before buying.

Still I think that a lot of gear purchases are based on image or pre-conceived notions of quality & not on the actual quality of the instruments that are in front of people. I really think a lot of people find it difficult to judge quality, so the "this is expensive, so it must be good' or "this is brand X , so it must be good" type of thinking comes into play. Not complaining as I'm rather happy that there are great affordable instruments out there, partially as a result of this.

 

[dapmdave]

I don't see how it could be a surprise that anyone (especially newbies) would be attracted to the big, established name brands. After all, these companies expend a lot of effort in establishing and maintaining their brands in the marketplace. Can we agree that things like advertising and product placement are not and have never been strong suits for Guild?

How many of us first became Guild lovers because, while not actively seeking a Guild, we happened to stumble across our first one and fell in love? In my case, a friend who owned a small music store knew the sort of music I was playing, and knew I couldn't lay out the big bucks for a Martin or a Gibson. He put a '76 D-40 in my hands and I was hooked.

Dave

 

[jte]

...How many of us first became Guild lovers because, while not actively seeking a Guild, we happened to stumble across our first one and fell in love? In my case, a friend who owned a small music store knew the sort of music I was playing, and knew I couldn't lay out the big bucks for a Martin or a Gibson. He put a '76 D-40 in my hands and I was hooked. Dave

Yep, that's kind of the point. We sold a good number of Guild guitars because we LOVED them. And we took the time to present them to customers, show them, let them play the guitars, and played them so they could hear the instruments themselves. Part of the FMIC problem, as I've posted before, is that so many Fender dealers simply don't know or care to do that stuff. Most folks walk into a guitar store looking for a Strat, a Tele, a Precision, or a Jazz bass and all the sales drone has to do is get the customer to the right price range to extract the most money out of them. And because most people DON'T walk in looking for a Guild it's a whole different process to sell Guilds.

The same person who essentially functions as an order-taker on a Strat will do the same if someone comes in asking about an ES-335. They'll either point them to the real Gibson, or if they can't afford that to the Epiphone Dot or possibly the Ibanez series. Those brands are already established in the mass guitar public's mind so it's an easy sale. But to take the time to hand them a Starfire IV or a D-40 and explain the differences and benefits of the Guild takes time and requires building a relationship. You can sell five MIM Strats in that time so you hand them an Epiphone or a Taylor and close the deal.

And back in the late '90s or early 2000, FMIC seemed (at least locally) to have given a Guild franchise to any Fender dealer and to have loaded them all up with a lot of stuff that didn't turn quickly. That jaundiced a lot of dealers towards Guild. So consequently the customers only see Guild as either something they've never heard of or as something the dealers blow out at stupid low prices and never restock.

John

 

[guildman63]

How many of us first became Guild lovers because, while not actively seeking a Guild, we happened to stumble across our first one and fell in love? In my case, a friend who owned a small music store knew the sort of music I was playing, and knew I couldn't lay out the big bucks for a Martin or a Gibson. He put a '76 D-40 in my hands and I was hooked.

I, for one, stumbled upon Guild entirely by accident, and it was while completely lusting after a Gibson ES-335 (although I had never played one and had no idea what it played like). I was in high school, and I was taking lessons from a local Jazzer that was referred to me by a friend of mine that was studying with this guy. My friend and I both wanted an ES-335, and while his parents bought him one my parents had me save up and buy my own. Due to the cost of a 335 that was not an easy thing for a 16-year-old, so when I asked my instructor to find me a 335 and said that I had $500 to spend he came back with a Starfire V instead. I was very upset that I had to "settle" for this inferior guitar that I had never heard of (this was around 1979 or 1980). Ultimately, that was what I could afford, and that is what I wound up buying. Following that I wanted a hollow-body guitar, and had my heart set on an ES-175 (had never played one, but Gibson was cool, right?). Again, my budget limited me to less than $500, so my instructor found me a mint Guild CE-100D. Very disappointed once again, but I had to "settle" :lol: To my amazement, these two guitars were the best guitars I had ever played (until recently with my X-500, SF-4 and X-170T). Smart instructor, huh? I ultimately sold both to pay college tuition, but in the end when money is no longer an object I am back to Guild, and have no reason to ever consider Gibson again.

 

[iismet]

Nothing more gratifying than going to a Jam with 335 players and pulling out my IV and letting it rip thru a 5e3. I wish Fender could have seen the potential, on the other hand, I am quite happy they did not.

 

[fronobulax]

Can we agree that things like advertising and product placement are not and have never been strong suits for Guild?

I think the last thread on the subject has "died out". Shall I not agree just to plow the ground again? :lol:

How many of us first became Guild lovers because, while not actively seeking a Guild,

I can't really recall why I bought my first Guild except that it was chosen in part because it wasn't a Fender. I was definitely into playing something that everyone else was not, in contrast to the lemmings.

 

[Ravon]

Can we agree that things like advertising and product placement are not and have never been strong suits for Guild?

I think the last thread on the subject has "died out". Shall I not agree just to plow the ground again? :lol:

How many of us first became Guild lovers because, while not actively seeking a Guild,

I can't really recall why I bought my first Guild except that it was chosen in part because it wasn't a Fender. I was definitely into playing something that everyone else was not, in contrast to the lemmings.

I had ordered a Gibson JS yrs. ago. I waited several months and was then told they were going up another nine hundred and still would have a long wait. The music store told me I could put what I had down on the Gibson and get a Guild Artist Award that looked at least as good, considerably less and as just as good if not a better guitar. I went for it and haven't looked back since

 

[dapmdave]

Can we agree that things like advertising and product placement are not and have never been strong suits for Guild?

I think the last thread on the subject has "died out". Shall I not agree just to plow the ground again? :lol:

Aw, c'mon frono. It's one of those topics that will live forever in one form or another. Kind of like Star Trek movies. :lol:

Dave

 

[lavern23]

My friend and I had the same discussion today about this and about Fender twin reverbs vs Musicman hd130-212. We both agreed on the guild and musicman equally worth the same and sometimes more but will never overcome the hype.

 

[steamfurnace]

I was lucky enough to have made friends with my local mom and pop store's onsite luthier. I told him that I was looking for a 335, but had tried a dozen new and used, and was very disappointed in the quality or condition of what I had tried. His store sold both Gibson and Guild. He handed me a Starfire IV and the rest was history. I bought it new 10 years ago, and am still loving it.

 

[fordcat]

After stumbling on this thread I felt compelled to post, even if it is a bit late. A couple of weekends ago, my brother and I went out and "test drove" guitars. We've both been playing for over 20 years, so we at least know if a guitar plays well. I was looking for a hollowbody or semi hollow. I'd narrowed it down to an ES 339, 335 or Starfire (3 or 4). Got to play several ES series, and chanced upon 2 used guilds, one that looked to be an old X-175 and a Starfire III. It was ridiculous. Not only was there almost no difference in quality of sound (between the SF and the ES), but the Guilds blew the Gibsons out of the water in playability every time. The Gibsons played Ok, but compared to the Guilds they felt like Kmart guitars. The Gibson's price, however, would make one think that the guitars played themselves. I'm kind of glad that people are blinded by the Gibson name - it lowers the price of the superior instruments for those who are paying attention.

 

[SFIV1967]

Welcome to LTG fordcat! First post! So did you end up getting a Guild? Just curious.
Ralf

 

[Brad Little]

I have nothing to back this up, but I've always felt that Guild had a much higher profile in the New York area than elsewhere. It may be a false impression, but I'd like other input or thoughts on this.
Brad