How do you talk the price down?

[jcwu]

I told the manager that, "If you could do the guitar and the case INCLUDING tax for $2000 I'd take it otherwise, I gotta go."

That offer was actually LOWER than the $1800 that I had offered once case and tax was factored in.

My guess is that he found extra wiggle room in the case price.

 

[southernGuild]

From the other side, as a seller, someone just offered me $100 less than I was asking for an item on craigslist.
I declined his offer because I've set my acceptable price. 8)

Joe

That's fair enough too Joe. Perhaps that 'buyer' will realise it is worth that and more, and he's aleady getting it at a fine price. Give it time. :wink:

 

[alpep]

I sell gear
and I can tell you what annoys me.

e mail me with a low ball offer.
I totally ignore you.

if you call me on the phone and we talk about a price I am know you are interested and will deal.

offering cash is offensive. if you are in CA and I am in NJ you know you are going to give me a credit card. most cards cost me as much as 4% so you would have to send me a postal money order to actually save that 4%

No I will not go to jail for you by not charging you sales tax. It's the law period. you got a problem with it take it up with chrispy christie.

sometimes I get customers that call me and get a price then call me and tell me they called 4 other places and got a lower price and they want me to beat it. if I can sure I do it if not I tell them to call the last guy and let him at least make something on the sale of the instrument.

if you want the lowest price expect the lowest service.

funny if I went to most of your jobs and tried to barter unrealistically i bet you would throw me out. or if your boss told you that he/she did not think you worked your $10 an hour worth so you are only getting 6 you would go ballistic.
think about it next time you make someone an outrageous offer. people that sell musical instruments are good folks just trying to make a living not a target for grief.


rant over

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Thanks alpep. Buyers need to look at it from the sellers' point of view. I'm happy to say that I don't pull any of those tricks.

 

[guildman63]

Darryl,

I recently bought a '93 X-500 from a shop that had listed it on Gbase. The list price was $2850 or $2900, but I wasn't willing to pay that much (it was and is in mint condition, btw). The dealer initially declined my offer, so I thanked him for his time, asked him to contact me if he changes his mind, and went on my way. About one month later, out of the blue, I received an email asking if I was still interested in it for my initial offer, which was very reasonable, btw. I play it every day!

On the other side, I made a $2500 offer to Rumble Seat several months ago for the '62 Starfire II SPC they have listed. They list it as Honey Amber, but that has been refuted by another LTG member who inquired about the label specifics. A while later I made the same offer, and it was refused again. I then made that same offer a third time a month or two later, and again it was refused. Each time I supported my very reasonable offer with the listed book value and prior sales figures, which my offer exceeded, but they either paid way too much for it, or they are convinced that they have something very rare. In any case, that did not work out, and I went on my way and ultimately got a GSR T-500.

I think I did well in both cases.

As for low-ball offers, alpep makes some very good points, but on the other hand, there should never be offense taken by a seller that is offered much less than the asking price. All the seller has to do is say no, then move on. If the buyer is truly interested they will offer more and more until an agreement is reached, or until they have offered the most they are willing to pay. There are many out there that are hoping to get a very low price so that they can flip the item and make some money. There is nothing wrong with that, but as alpep said there are ways to do it and ways not to do it. In this age of technology forget the email and text messages, and make a call. It really does go a long way! I just sold a Henriksen extension cabinet that I had listed on craigslist for quite a while. I received several lower offers, and said no to all of them. Finally, a gentleman called me last week, made his pitch and his reason for his price, and I accepted it on the spot. He was at my house within 45 minutes with cash in hand. His offer was lower than my asking price, but was reasonable.

 

[West R Lee]

I got some good tips on how to sell. So now I'm hoping for advice on how to buy. In particular, how do you talk down those gbase dealers?

Good question Darryl. I caught some flack here a while back for having played a Martin that really spoke to be down in the Hill Country. On the way home, my wife and I discussed making an offer, the seller was looking for $2400. I told my lovely better half I'd go $2000, not a penny more. We turned around, drove the 30 miles back to the store, and I made my offer. My first offer was $1800. The seller came down to $2200, and I said "No dice" and offered $2000. The seller was firm on $2200, and I left the store that day without the Custom Martin D28. I have no regrets.

Some here thought I should have eaten the $200 if the guitar was a nice as I said it was, but to me, you either have a max, or you don't. The seller is almost always counting on your emotion taking hold, and hoping you'll give in. Sometimes you miss out by sticking to your guns, sometimes you don't.

Personally, I'd make an offer lower than you'd intend to pay, and who knows......he may meet you there, but then you have a little room to manuver.

One more thing about buying off of Gbase. When I've done it, if not familiar with the dealer, I'll call Gbase Customer Service and ask them if they've had any complaints regarding the seller. Just a way to cover your tracks. I bought my DV73 from a Gbase dealer.

West

 

[alpep]

guildman63
what is your job?

do customers or clients treat you with respect?

do the same for gear sellers

 

[davismanLV]

guildman63
what is your job?

do customers or clients treat you with respect?

do the same for gear sellers

I'm not quite sure what your point is alpep. Guildman63 has a method of determining what he's willing to pay for a given guitar and goes after it. Either it works or it doesn't. He doesn't seem to be disrespectful to anyone in the process. If everyone got their asking price, things would get a bit inflated. The seller always has the option to say, "No, thank you." and it's all good. I've turned down people's offers before and told them to come back when they are willing to meet my price. It's all about setting limits and striking deals. Unless someone is using a gun, I don't think there's any harm.......

 

[adorshki]

Finally, a gentleman called me last week, made his pitch and his reason for his price, and I accepted it on the spot. He was at my house within 45 minutes with cash in hand. His offer was lower than my asking price, but was reasonable.

Yep. Lot easier to express mutual respect in a live conversation than in email. And that's more "negotiating gold". :wink:

 

[guildman63]

guildman63
what is your job?

do customers or clients treat you with respect?

do the same for gear sellers

Alpep,

I am a physical therapist, and no, clients do not always treat me with respect. Regardless, I must always treat them with respect as my job depends on it and theirs does not...they want to get better with the least effort and at the lowest cost, which is very similar to what you deal with.

Disrespect was neither intended nor implied by my response. In fact, I thought suggesting personal contact demonstrates respect. My simple point is that making a low-ball offer, while very annoying, and perhaps a waste of your time if it is an unreasonable offer, is not of itself a crime. Everybody wants the best deal possible, and to expect their idea of what is fair to match yours is an unrealistic expectation. They also are likely very aware that they are being unreasonable, but that is their right. Ultimately, it is about customer service, and whether or not one can provide great service despite these annoyances. It is not easy, but those that do will always profit in the end.

I hope this clears up my position a little. :wink:

 

[fronobulax]

Folks - thanks for keeping things civil.

As one who gets in a lot of trouble inferring emotions and nuances from internet postings I would like to offer up a comment about the phrase "low ball". When the person making the offer refers to it as a "low ball" offer I always assume (as the seller) that they know darn well their offer is unrealistically low. Thus they already know that they are wasting my time or trying to take advantage of a situation that may or may not exist. Unfortunately if their offer is low because they are ignorant or misinformed, I may still see it as a "low ball" offer and react accordingly.

But yeah, dealers are people too.

 

[tjmangum]

There is a great book, written by Herb Cohen many years ago, entitled "You Can Negotiate Anything".
His theory is that every negotiation is a combination of 3 elements:
Timing, Information & Power.
If you call a plumber on Saturday night and say you have water pouring from your ceiling (right over your guitar room!) and he is available to come immediately to fix it - he can probably charge just about anything he wants. He has the power to solve your problem, when you want it done, he has the information about how bad the situation is and being Saturday night, he knows you won't be calling around to shop his price.
Every potential player brings something different to each negotiation. At the end of the day, fair market value is only what a knowledgeable, willing, and unpressured buyer would probably pay to a knowledgeable, willing, and unpressured seller in the market. Deals happen when a buyer or seller are not knowledgeable or the seller is pressured to sell.
T

 

[rampside]

This topic reminded of going to the car lot. The salesperson will inevitably have contrasting views on the worth of the vehicle they are trying to sell you and the one you are trading in. :roll: :lol:

 

[davismanLV]

That's a really good example of perspective, Terry!! At a dealership, at least when you're trading in a vehicle, the dealer is both a buyer and a seller. And value all depends on your point of view. He's going to try to get top dollar for his sale, and give bottom dollar for the trade in. Does this make him a bad guy? I don't think so. He's just straddling a fence and trying to do his job. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna let him GET those numbers! It's all about the negotiation......

 

[alpep]

you reap what you sow.



I have yet to find a car dealership give anywhere near "blue book" value when you are trading in a used car. yet as a guitar dealer I am expected to give the highest guitar blue book value or e bay value as a trade it.


you guys have to understand why this whole topic rubs me the wrong way. I tend to price my instruments at market value not above not below that leaves little "wiggle room" when say something is blue book value at $1200 mine is priced at $1000 an offer of $500 is just not even worth talking about.


don't get me started on the other portion of customers that believe they can ship guitars from Washington state to florida fully insured for $18 or the international customer that insists I can ship something that is 4 times the size of a priority mail box in the box.

rant over

 

[Christopher Cozad]

If I may stick my foot in my mouth, as they say, I am assuming Darryl's (topic) question, 'How do you talk the price down?' stems from the belief that the (any) asking price is likely too high to begin with.

That may very well be the case and, if so, for me it begs the question, "Why"? Why must sellers be convinced they always risk being "talked down" in price, while buyers continue to believe list prices are always "too high"? Why is this culture supported? Why would this behavior be encouraged?

There is a truth that value is established through purchase (we can banter all day long about value proposition and market rates but, in the end, the value is set by what the buyer was willing to pay). As a result, some have suggested that price is *always* negotiable. I have found that not to be the case and have worked diligently to better understand the process.

Having some fun, consider the differences in the following buying scenarios:

I need something you have...but you aren't selling...
I want something you have...but you aren't selling...
a. I am willing to go to any lengths to procure what you have.
b. I am willing to go to any legal lengths to procure what you have.
c. I have my pride and there are certain depths to which I will not descend.
d. I am willing to not have what you have.

I need or want something you are selling, but I believe the asking price is too high...
a. I will only purchase it if I believe it is a "good deal".
b. I will only purchase it if it is "on sale".
c. I will only feel as though I have lived if I can talk you out of your unrighteous profit.
d. I cannot afford your price and ask you to make special consideration for me.
e. I buy what you are selling.

Prices are often artificially (dishonestly, anyone?) inflated with the full expectation that "negotiating" may well result in a sales price being lower that the asking price. This negotiation is elevated to art form status and is fodder for countless jokes, stories, movies, books and training seminars. Typically, the objective of the seller is to get as much as possible, with the buyer's objective being diametrically opposed. I say 'typically' as this is not always the case. It is the atypical story that fascinates and inspires me.

Throughout my life I have witnessed a seemingly "natural" adversarial relationship between buyers and sellers (labor and management, husbands and wives, cats and dogs, etc. ) where both parties begin their encounter with distrust. The seller has been ingrained with the maxim, 'Buyers are liars' and the buyer knows for certain the seller is trying to 'rip them off'. Thus begins the cage fight. Each combatant circles the other, bringing their negotiating skills to bear with the intent of walking away the winner. I have identified three types of "fighters":

1. The addict - they live for the fight
2. The hopeful - one day they may actually land a "win"
3. The unwilling - they are in attendance because that is how everybody says the game must be played

I would propose the notion of a winner at the expense of a loser is ultimately counter-productive (personally, socially, economically) and realize I may have a bit of a minority view.

Some have suggested a sales / purchasing strategy known as "win / win", where both parties walk away believing they have achieved their objectives. All too often, the operative word in this scenario is 'believing', and results in more training in techniques intended to convince (deceive?) the other party that the deal is going to work to their advantage.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" makes for an interesting maxim with regards to buying and selling. If you are looking forward to always being treated as though you are a predator (whether buyer or seller), then prey on.

Christopher

 

[Wilfred]

No problem if you're a seller who is very clear about your pricing being the best he can (and will) do, providing your prices are within reasonable/realistic market margins. What it all comes down to: if someone really wants a particular item you're selling, he/she will eventually pull the trigger anyway.

But in general a seller of vintage/collectible items should expect prospective buyers to negotiate, and not be offended by the fact. It's part of the game, and frankly, in my opinion, one of the most enjoyable parts. Trying to get the best possible deal, as a buyer ánd a seller, is in fact rule #1. And it's a mind game. The best deals leave buyer ánd seller satisfied, and the door wide open for future business.

 

[fronobulax]

in my opinion, one of the most enjoyable parts.

I think it is differences over that opinion that drive this discussion. As a seller, if I have priced something at $5, you ask for "my best price" and I tell you $4 it is not pleasant for me when you get your enjoyment asking me if I'd take $3.50. And trust me, I have had many people walk away mad at me because I won't give them the thrill of bartering over $.50 .

 

[Wilfred]

I understand what you're saying, but the difference might be that your 'best price' actually IS your best price, while many (most) sellers just mention a price to get the ball rolling. Just like most 'best offers' usually are quite a bit less than someone would ultimately be willing to pay. Of course it also depends if you're selling $5, $50, $500 or $5000 items, but I assumed that we were talking guitars and big(ger) ticket items here.

Someone who walks away for 50 cents is a) just a jerk, b) didn't want your item anyway or c) has already seen it at a lower price elsewhere.

Nothing wrong with making perfectly clear to a buyer that your prices are firm, but don't expect a buyer to know this without being told, especially in an environment where negotiating is generally accepted (shows, fairs, garage sales, flea markets, online market places/-auctions etc).

 

[adorshki]

But in general a seller of vintage/collectible items should expect prospective buyers to negotiate, and not be offended by the fact. It's part of the game, and frankly, in my opinion, one of the most enjoyable parts. Trying to get the best possible deal, as a buyer ánd a seller, is in fact rule #1. And it's a mind game. The best deals leave buyer ánd seller satisfied, and the door wide open for future business.

OK, I've been both a retail and wholesale sales professional for nigh on to 30 years, and ya just don't surivive in that profession by being a predator.
Wilfred you're almost exactly spot on, but I'll share something that I tell everyone who ever tells me they're interested in sales:
One simple question has made me more money in my life than any other: "WHY?"
Asking that simple question got me my first job in sales 3 minutes into my first interview.
If you don't understand how that simple question unlocks the door to understanding a buyer's needs, capabilities, and motivations, all you're doing is throwing numbers at a wall and hoping one of 'em sticks. And throwing away profit while you're doing it.
It's got absolutely nothing to do with manipulation or misrepresentation.
It's got everything to do with narrowing your focus (and the customer's) on what they really need versus what they want.
The second most important question is the definitive negotiation: "IF I do THAT for you (adjust the price, add a feature, improve a delivery, whatever), will you do THIS (buy my product now) for me?
AS long as the answer is no, the question remains "why" or "why not" which is actually the same question.
There's no need for manipulation, but there is every need to make sure you are addressing the buyer's needs and making sure they understand that.
And it works both ways.
It's no guarantee that every deal will be made but it does pretty much guarantee mutual satisfaction based on the essential negotiating questions being exchanged until mutual agreement is arrived at.
@ Alpep: As Frono pointed out, some people really are clueless, and while I know it's tiresome to hear the same old "lowballers" day after day, ya still gotta just try to keep an open mind that maybe this guy talking to you right now only needs to be asked "why" in order to start getting a clue about what he's gonna have to spend to achieve his goal....like how much is your live service worth compared to the Craigslist seller who only lists an email address but doesn't even answer the mail?
Or that maybe that he actually likes you because you're the first guy to express an interest in his his motivations.
THAT's what I call the "Socratic sales method".
Selling is asking questions not reciting a catalog listing.
:wink: