How Acoustic Guitar Tops Move - In Action

Westerly Wood

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I think I posted this a while back, but this is one of the D35s I have owned over the years, and for whatever reason, I put my iphone in the bottom of the guitar (in soundhole), and recorded. I was not doing this to see how tops move, it was just a cool other result of that event. I am finger picking some really ugly run, but the top is hopping!

 

GGJaguar

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It would be cool if you could measure how much deflection is there is in the top. It looks like a lot, but maybe it's only a few hundredths of a millimeter. Or more. I dunno.
 

Westerly Wood

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Yes, only a few parents realized those Westerly-built Guilds could safely double as trampolines.

Seriously, though, movement of the soundboard is one of the amazing features of an acoustic stringed instrument.
But there is no way to tell from the outside. So when I saw that, I was blown away. Makes you wonder what string gauge is best too, what chokes a top, what allows it to really move.
 

adorshki

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But there is no way to tell from the outside. So when I saw that, I was blown away. Makes you wonder what string gauge is best too, what chokes a top, what allows it to really move.
That's why the first thing a luthier decides when building a guitar is what string tension is going to run the top. It "drives" all the other decisions.
 

adorshki

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It seems to move more based on frequency than volume created.
Assuming optimum setup geometry (including string gage), volume is a function of how much the top moves and the efficiency of the sound box in moving air.

Your frequency observation has its own relevance, because yes, a lower frequency requires longer top travel for accurate reproduction, much like a speaker, especially bass speakers. That can be perceived as volume.

In fact, at equal decibels, the human ear perceives treble frequencies as being louder than bass freqs. So subwoofers need long throws to handle both the long wavelengths of lower frequencies and the power needed to compensate for the ear's "hearing profile".

In a guitar the "power" is the tension of the strings. Much like a speaker's voice coil can get bound up by too much power and freeze the speaker cone, too much string tension binds up a top with "pre-load" and prevents it from giving optimum travel.
 

JohnW63

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I can't disagree with that. I was going to guess the guitars native frequency might have something to do with is vibrating the most, but it very well could be it looked the most when the frequency matched the shutter speed or some harmonic of it.

It was cool to see , what ever the reason.
 

adorshki

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I can't disagree with that. I was going to guess the guitars native frequency might have something to do with is vibrating the most, but it very well could be it looked the most when the frequency matched the shutter speed or some harmonic of it.

It was cool to see , what ever the reason.
Good point there too. I think it might be why I'm loving the D40 so much: flatbacks enhance fundamentals and
a lot of guitars do have a "native frequency", which is very nice when it's an actual tone in the "western scale". Thus the practice of carving and tap-tuning archtops in particular, but can be done to flattops as well.

Let's not forget bracing is critical to optimum top travel as well. Great bracing can make so-so top wood sound very good but lousy bracing will choke even the best top wood right off. So a few years back I got a new hypothesis that Guild's real secret sauce over all the years is their attention to bracing.
;)
 

Christopher Cozad

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Native" works, though if you replace it with the word "Resonant" you will get less sideways glances and raised eyebrows from the this-is-our-club-o-phile crowd.

The Resonant Frequency of an acoustic guitar, specifically, the natural vibrating frequency of the body, the frequency at which the body of the guitar vibrates the most in response to, is typically somewhere between 80 Hz and 120 Hz, with the "nicer, more pleasing" sounding instruments ranging between 95 Hz and 105 Hz (G# on the 6th string). Hum that note (or thereabouts) into the soundhole of your guitar (privately, or you could elicit very concerned looks from well-meaning loved ones, friends, or passers by), vary the note up and down, and you will experience it for yourself when you feel the guitar vibrate in unison as you nail that pitch. This number is referred to as the First Fundamental Resonant Frequency, and is a primary contributor in determining whether we like or dislike the overall sound of a particular guitar. (For those who care) there are actually two additional frequencies associated with the "Resonant Frequency" of a guitar; namely, the Helmholtz Frequency, also called the "Anti-resonant" Frequency, and the Second Fundamental Resonant Frequency. But for most arguments... er... discussions, the term "Resonant Frequency' is generally used to refer to the First Fundamental Resonant Frequency.

And here is where things get fun, as there are so many rabbit trails to explore:

Hertz measures vibrations per second. What/which vibrations are we measuring? Short answer: lots a' stuff, together. When attempting to convey sound generation of an acoustic guitar to the unwashed hordes, the soundboard, specifically, the area of the lower bout from the bridge to the tail, is often likened to a speaker cone, with the sides and back of the guitar being likened to the speaker cabinet. The metaphor works insofar as everyone is realizing that, unlike the speaker cabinet, the body of the acoustic guitar is also vibrating generously along with the soundboard. Various sections of the body will vibrate distinctly from other sections, moving in conjunction with the energy applied to them (plucked string, hand tapped surfaces, etc). Various shapes (called mode shapes or eigenvectors) are formed as these structures vibrate. The collective relationship between these constantly changing shapes, and our appreciation or disdain for the role they play in "conditioning" the overall sound of a given instrument, is a fascinating study.

There was a time when it was believed that, in order to achieve "proper" sound for a guitar, it was necessary to try to isolate the soundboard for vibration (like the speaker in the cabinet). So-called "ladder bracing" (the four braces glued to the inside of the back, running perpendicular to the string path) formed a very rigid plate (though that plate still vibrates!). Like most guitar manufacturers, Guild ladder braced the backs of its guitars and opted not to brace the sides. However, in an exploratory break from tradition, we discovered that Guild's Archback guitars have a distinct and welcome sound, don't they? The laminated arched back vibrates differently, forming different mode shapes, when compared to a ladder-braced sibling.

Where builders are concerned, the factors that most govern the overall "native" frequency, our First Fundamental Resonant Frequency, are the volume inside the box (determined by length, width and height), the size of the soundhole, and the material(s) used for construction. For a given body shape, such as a Guild dreadnought, altering the depth of the body will dramatically alter the Resonant Frequency. Likewise, leaving the depth alone but altering the size of the soundhole will dramatically alter the Resonant Frequency. The relationship between these two factors, body depth and soundhole size, is crucial. To a lesser extent, though still a factor, altering the wood species will affect the Resonant Frequency.

Loosening the bracing on the rigid backs, making the backs more "responsive," also affects the Resonant Frequency, though this moves quickly into the more subtle realm of the Second Fundamental Resonant Frequency and the corresponding Helmholtz Frequency. Uber-rigid sides and un-coupled backs also make for a super-interesting study. "Squirrel!" {sorry}

When we play the guitar, we complement the Resonant Frequency, more easily measured with the soundboard at rest, with the potential cacophony of frequencies generated when the soundboard is set in motion (some of us appear to be consistently more capable of generating cacophony than others). The bracing on the soundboard (including the bridge and bridgeplate) governs the response of the energy applied from the plucked strings. All that movement of all those sections of wood is producing more than a recognizable note or notes. All those mode shapes, taken together as a whole, provides us with what we generally identify as the overall "sound" of that guitar. Cool, huh?
 

Westerly Wood

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Regardless of how much the top in the video is moving, in my mind it begs the question, "why would anyone ever glue a pickguard to the top of a guitar (other than to protect the top, of course)?"
I think we have realized that a pickguard does not really hinder the tone or projection as much as we thought it out. Even the Guild double PGs, there was little if any noticeable difference. I cannot remember why...
 

GGJaguar

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Hum that note (or thereabouts) into the soundhole of your guitar (privately, or you could elicit very concerned looks from well-meaning loved ones, friends, or passers by), vary the note up and down, and you will experience it for yourself when you feel the guitar vibrate in unison as you nail that pitch.
I've done that on all my acoustics! It's an enlightening and fun exercise to do. Well, except when Mrs. Jaguar comes into the room to see what I'm doing because she's convinced I lost my mind. It can also help explain if the guitar has any wolf tones.
 

Christopher Cozad

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Uke, while I am with you, and I don't apply a pickguard to my own instruments (primarily for aesthetics), on a typical X-braced, center soundhole guitar (Guild, Gibson, Martin, Taylor, etc), that area of the soundboard is doing very little to shape the sound. The addition of a pickguard, or even those bookmatched, double pickguards, are actually not detrimental at all. (It can be easily demonstrated by building the guitar, measuring, recording, or even just listening to it, adding a self-stick pickguard, and comparing the results). You have already identified the primary reason for the pickguard: to protect the soft Spruce or Cedar from damage caused by excessive contact.
 

adorshki

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Regardless of how much the top in the video is moving, in my mind it begs the question, "why would anyone ever glue a pickguard to the top of a guitar (other than to protect the top, of course)?"
I think we have realized that a pickguard does not really hinder the tone or projection as much as we thought it out. Even the Guild double PGs, there was little if any noticeable difference. I cannot remember why...
Because the vast majority of sound reproduction (top motion) occurs in the lower bout below the bridge, out of the pickguard's area of limited influence. Same issue with cutaways, the top area removed is very low-production sound-wise. ;)
 

davidbeinct

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Native" works, though if you replace it with the word "Resonant" you will get less sideways glances and raised eyebrows from the this-is-our-club-o-phile crowd.

The Resonant Frequency of an acoustic guitar, specifically, the natural vibrating frequency of the body, the frequency at which the body of the guitar vibrates the most in response to, is typically somewhere between 80 Hz and 120 Hz, with the "nicer, more pleasing" sounding instruments ranging between 95 Hz and 105 Hz (G# on the 6th string). Hum that note (or thereabouts) into the soundhole of your guitar (privately, or you could elicit very concerned looks from well-meaning loved ones, friends, or passers by), vary the note up and down, and you will experience it for yourself when you feel the guitar vibrate in unison as you nail that pitch. This number is referred to as the First Fundamental Resonant Frequency, and is a primary contributor in determining whether we like or dislike the overall sound of a particular guitar. (For those who care) there are actually two additional frequencies associated with the "Resonant Frequency" of a guitar; namely, the Helmholtz Frequency, also called the "Anti-resonant" Frequency, and the Second Fundamental Resonant Frequency. But for most arguments... er... discussions, the term "Resonant Frequency' is generally used to refer to the First Fundamental Resonant Frequency.

And here is where things get fun, as there are so many rabbit trails to explore:

Hertz measures vibrations per second. What/which vibrations are we measuring? Short answer: lots a' stuff, together. When attempting to convey sound generation of an acoustic guitar to the unwashed hordes, the soundboard, specifically, the area of the lower bout from the bridge to the tail, is often likened to a speaker cone, with the sides and back of the guitar being likened to the speaker cabinet. The metaphor works insofar as everyone is realizing that, unlike the speaker cabinet, the body of the acoustic guitar is also vibrating generously along with the soundboard. Various sections of the body will vibrate distinctly from other sections, moving in conjunction with the energy applied to them (plucked string, hand tapped surfaces, etc). Various shapes (called mode shapes or eigenvectors) are formed as these structures vibrate. The collective relationship between these constantly changing shapes, and our appreciation or disdain for the role they play in "conditioning" the overall sound of a given instrument, is a fascinating study.

There was a time when it was believed that, in order to achieve "proper" sound for a guitar, it was necessary to try to isolate the soundboard for vibration (like the speaker in the cabinet). So-called "ladder bracing" (the four braces glued to the inside of the back, running perpendicular to the string path) formed a very rigid plate (though that plate still vibrates!). Like most guitar manufacturers, Guild ladder braced the backs of its guitars and opted not to brace the sides. However, in an exploratory break from tradition, we discovered that Guild's Archback guitars have a distinct and welcome sound, don't they? The laminated arched back vibrates differently, forming different mode shapes, when compared to a ladder-braced sibling.

Where builders are concerned, the factors that most govern the overall "native" frequency, our First Fundamental Resonant Frequency, are the volume inside the box (determined by length, width and height), the size of the soundhole, and the material(s) used for construction. For a given body shape, such as a Guild dreadnought, altering the depth of the body will dramatically alter the Resonant Frequency. Likewise, leaving the depth alone but altering the size of the soundhole will dramatically alter the Resonant Frequency. The relationship between these two factors, body depth and soundhole size, is crucial. To a lesser extent, though still a factor, altering the wood species will affect the Resonant Frequency.

Loosening the bracing on the rigid backs, making the backs more "responsive," also affects the Resonant Frequency, though this moves quickly into the more subtle realm of the Second Fundamental Resonant Frequency and the corresponding Helmholtz Frequency. Uber-rigid sides and un-coupled backs also make for a super-interesting study. "Squirrel!" {sorry}

When we play the guitar, we complement the Resonant Frequency, more easily measured with the soundboard at rest, with the potential cacophony of frequencies generated when the soundboard is set in motion (some of us appear to be consistently more capable of generating cacophony than others). The bracing on the soundboard (including the bridge and bridgeplate) governs the response of the energy applied from the plucked strings. All that movement of all those sections of wood is producing more than a recognizable note or notes. All those mode shapes, taken together as a whole, provides us with what we generally identify as the overall "sound" of that guitar. Cool, huh?
I’m going to try that for sure. That frequency is pretty close to the happy note for my “voice” such as it is, according to some online singing exercises I’ve tried.
 

Nuuska

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Extremely interesting

If I try to find the resonant frequency using oscillator-amp speaker - all of which I have - should I take the strings off ?
I'm leaning to taking them off for this "humming test".

Just thinking that w strings on their tension affects any measurement.

Naturaly all this leads to an endless rabbithole - detuning the guitar higher or lower - as long you play alone.
 
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