higher action on gad30R

[robinbirdd]

Hello forum folks!

When I got my gad30R from santa in december 2009, it was very dried out. Thanks to all your input, it's nicely moisturized now. The dips in the top are gone and the back is nicely curved out now. Yay!

Now here's my new dilema....the lovely low action appears to be a thing of the past. Now that the top had fattened up, it the action had gotten very high. This makes for some challenging chord changes for my very beginner hands. I've had a very experienced guitar player friend look at it and he agrees it had move up a lot since I first got it. (phew - not going crazy yet).

I have had a friend suggest getting a new bridge, does that make sense? Do y'all think it may be possible to lower it sufficiently by messing with the truss rod instead? any approach better than the other? there is a well respected instrument guy in town I can take it to for the changes - so I am good there. Just thought it'd be nice to have a couple other opinions.

thanks a bunch!

 

[adorshki]

Check the neck for straightness. While holding the guitar with bottom of the top right up next to your eye, sight down the neck to see if there's any visible curvature. The truss rod is normally used to correct any issues there, but it can only go so far. If you remember what the original action height was, check it again to see how much it's gone up. It's possible the swelling of the wood has loosened truss, allowing the neck to bow up slightly. Ideally the neck should be straight, sometimes a very shallow dip between the 7th and 10th frets is not actually a bad thing. Varies from axe to axe.
While the rod can be used to induce a little reverse curvature to lower the action, it's not the ideal way to go, it can cause the buzzing issues to return. "Shaving" the saddle (as opposed to the bridge) is the next step to lower the action. The trade-off is if the saddle gets too low, the strings don't put as much energy into the top (due to reduced "break angle") but ideally there's enough height on the saddle to lower it without affecting the volume very much if at all even. The nut can actually play a role too, it's possible to slightly deepen those slots for slightly lower action on those first 3 or 4 frets. By all means get an opinion from a pro, these are just the basic factors I think you're gonna be dealing with. A basic "set-up" is one of the best investments you can make once you're satisfied the axe is structurally sound. Pretty reasonable too.

 

[Bill Ashton]

Case in point...

I bought my (Tacoma) D55 in late August of 09, and it has been a mostly love/hate relationship. I LOVE the sound and the look, but it has been really "stiff" to play. Changed from the medium strings to lights with some effect. Had to weak the truss rod just a bit in late February even though I kept it as humidifed as I could.

FINALLY today I took it to a luthier that is also an authorized Guild repair station. A quick look revealed that the neck relief can still come down some, the saddle can be lowered, and that the lower three strings are cut too high on the nut. Can't see any other issues, and this was after my explanation that I was an edge-of-the-bed finger-picker and not a Bluegrass flat picker. Should be done next week. I am optimistic this will be $75 well spent.

I would suspect, my aviary friend, that unless your particular Santa is a luthier, you may have a similar issue.

Setting up a Strat and floating its vibrato just right is easy for me, but I am the first to acknowledge that I can't file a nut...

(OH, I am sure Jerry will have a come-back for that remark )

 

[cuthbert]

Check the neck for straightness. While holding the guitar with bottom of the top right up next to your eye, sight down the neck to see if there's any visible curvature. The truss rod is normally used to correct any issues there, but it can only go so far. If you remember what the original action height was, check it again to see how much it's gone up. It's possible the swelling of the wood has loosened truss, allowing the neck to bow up slightly. Ideally the neck should be straight, sometimes a very shallow dip between the 7th and 10th frets is not actually a bad thing. Varies from axe to axe.
While the rod can be used to induce a little reverse curvature to lower the action, it's not the ideal way to go, it can cause the buzzing issues to return. "Shaving" the saddle (as opposed to the bridge) is the next step to lower the action. The trade-off is if the saddle gets too low, the strings don't put as much energy into the top (due to reduced "break angle") but ideally there's enough height on the saddle to lower it without affecting the volume very much if at all even. The nut can actually play a role too, it's possible to slightly deepen those slots for slightly lower action on those first 3 or 4 frets. By all means get an opinion from a pro, these are just the basic factors I think you're gonna be dealing with. A basic "set-up" is one of the best investments you can make once you're satisfied the axe is structurally sound. Pretty reasonable too.

I just have to add that:

1)The truss rod can lower the action from the 1st to the 12th (approx) fret, if the neck is too bowed you'll notice that they buzz from the 1st to the 5th fret, then the action will slightly increase.

2)Lower the saddle is the best solution, if it's becoming too low you can either sand the bridge or carve slots on the pin holes, but they both jobs for a skilled luthier...

3)The nut is too high if you have troubles with the first frets but if you use a capo the action is confortable.

4)If the action is low until the 14th fret but over it's increasing too much it's time for a neck reset...

 

[robinbirdd]

thanks folks! I am new to all this so having the right terminology and some options laid out will be a tremendous help for when I walk in to the shop.

I am off to the pro's next week. Will let you know what happens. he comes recommended by a finiky type-a friend with a 70's era martin, (i say that with nothing but admiration) so he must be good!

When I first got the GAD it had lowish action and was super easy to play, and no buzzies. there are still no buzzies, but it's much harder to play even with my long fingers. I've kept it in the case with 2 humidifiers (both oasis, on case style and one jumbo in the sound hole) so holding well in the 40 -47% range - which is super considering my climate is typically 10 - 15% humidity). Hoping things have had time to settle and this will be the only adjustements needed.

sadly santa is NOT a luthier, but he does have darn good taste in presents!

 

[cuthbert]

thanks folks! I am new to all this so having the right terminology and some options laid out will be a tremendous help for when I walk in to the shop.

I am off to the pro's next week. Will let you know what happens. he comes recommended by a finiky type-a friend with a 70's era martin, (i say that with nothing but admiration) so he must be good!

When I first got the GAD it had lowish action and was super easy to play, and no buzzies. there are still no buzzies, but it's much harder to play even with my long fingers. I've kept it in the case with 2 humidifiers (both oasis, on case style and one jumbo in the sound hole) so holding well in the 40 -47% range - which is super considering my climate is typically 10 - 15% humidity). Hoping things have had time to settle and this will be the only adjustements needed.

sadly santa is NOT a luthier, but he does have darn good taste in presents!

Try to play a little bit with the truss rod: chances are that the neck is slightly bent and you can try to replace it on spec...be gentle and delicate, probably a quarter of turn should be enough.

 

[adorshki]

HI Robin I remembered you but I must have gotten you mixed up with somone else about the buzzing. No buzzing is very very good. "Break angle" refers to the angle the strings make as they pass over the saddle. The sharper the angle the more energy from the vibrating string is transmitted to the top, means better volume. So the saddle is the intended point of raising/ lowering action, but there's a point of diminishing returns if you make it too low. If it's lowered too much the strings will buzz on the bridge (the wooden plate that holds the saddle) A lot of people advocate then sanding down the bridge but this is not actually a good idea unless you just want to extend the playable life of a throw-away instrument for little cost. It will absolutely degrade the sound of the instrument if you have to go to the extreme of sanding down the bridge around the saddle to create string clearance. If things are that bad it usually means the neck has to be "reset", detached from the guitar and reattached at the right angle in to recreate good tone and action. In your case I don't think that's what's happening, that usually takes decades and since your guitar is young and felt good intitially, I think most likely it's just gonna be the truss adjustment and maybe a little extra saddle and nut work. It's common for guitars to need the truss adjusted in the first couple of years as they "settle in", then a good one should stay pretty stable for a long time, even as long as a year and more. Some folks say they tweak theirs a couple of times a year, but I don't even think about mine more than every year and a half or so, now.
"Action height" is the height from the top of the 12th fret to the string. For american Guilds it's set at 5-6/64" on the Bass E string and 4-5/64th on the treble E. You should see if you look closely that the saddle curvature results in the 3 high strings being closer to the fretboard than the bass strings, that's on purpose, and that's why the treble E should be a little lower. I've found that Guild's "setup height" is a pretty good starting point for most guitars. Some people think it's a little bit high, but it's much easier to lower action bit by bit at the saddle than it is to raise it back up again, so it's wiser to start a little high.
That's why the first thing is to make sure the neck is straight again, then see if the saddle needs to be lowered a little, then possibly the nut slots.
I suspect a simple truss adjustment is going to fix 90%+ of your problem. It's actually not that difficult to do yourself, the idea is to tighten it only about 1/4 turn at a time and let it settle overnight. I do it with the string tension lowered but not completely loose. I don't know how the GAD's are built but normally it's "righty tighty, lefty loosy". If the neck is showing bowing, in other words, if you can see curvature similar to the shape of a bow in it, with the strings acting just like bow strings, then the truss rod is too loose. Visually you might be able to at least know that's probably all that's wrong even if you don't want to try to adjust it yourself.
If the guy you take it to doesn't repeat these ideas back to you, I'd consider another guy.

 

[robinbirdd]

Fixed!!

mystery shim below saddle has been removed and with a big turn on the truss (plus some back and forth and eyeballing and measuring and all that...) the lovely low action is back.

thank you all for the input - it was great to walk in knowing what to look for!

 

[taabru45]

Removing the shim and letting the saddle directly contact the bridge might well give you a better sounding guitar too...nice catch. :wink: Steffan

 

[BenF]

yup, I just lowered the saddle on my GAD M20, and put a goot turn and quarter tighten on the truss rod, and it plays like butter. It is a very useful skill to learn, setting up a guitar. I am learning, reading, trying stuff all the time. If you are preapred to take the riskd of getting it wrong on the chin, it is a fairly easy thing to learn, and invaluable as you progress.

 

[adorshki]

Fixed!!

mystery shim below saddle has been removed and with a big turn on the truss (plus some back and forth and eyeballing and measuring and all that...) the lovely low action is back.

thank you all for the input - it was great to walk in knowing what to look for!

YAY.
Wonder if that shim was put in at factory or by someone trying to raise it..not the ideal way to go, because as Steffan said, that shim probably sucked up a little energy at the expense of tone/volume.

 

[taabru45]

My new D35 almost buzzed in the higher neck area, My luthier said you could get one on those maple coffee stir sticks that are still made of maple, and make a shim...OK, so i pulled the saddle and found there was already a shim under there, so I got a generic Tusq saddle, and sanded it till it fit, now its got a comp. saddle, great action, and the satisfaction of having done it., and done it well. I took the old bone saddle and put it into an old Anjo dreadnaught, 70s Japan type guitar that i got for $20. Bought it for the basic soft case, This old baby after having the truss tightened, and filing the slots in the nut, now has a decent action and pretty decent tone too...have fun, but don't try a neck re-set..........yet. :lol: :lol: . Steffan

 

[robinbirdd]

Yes! It's buttery smooth now and has a bit more depth to the sound. Could not be happier with this guitar.

For now there will be no home truss rod adjustments - too scary!! The shop it came from will do it free. I belive they are the ones that put the shim in, santa does not play but santa's helper does...and he said it buzzed in the shop prior to purchase. I think what happend is the top was a bit sunken and now that it's up it doesn't need the shim.

Thanks again y'all!