Guitar Investments

[Los Angeles]

Interesting thread. A couple of the guitar mags have had articles on the subject. Guitar Aficionado had an article that included a chart, much like a stock equity chart. And, just like the market for stocks, real estate, yachts, R.V.'s etc. the guitar market took a pretty good hit. Now some guitar buyers are back in looking for bargains. The article also mentioned that as the prices for the iconic instruments, 59 Les Paul, pre-war Martin and Gibson flat tops, pre CBS Fenders got out of sight, prices for the secondary brands started to increase. Now very early Taylor guitars are becoming "collectable". Will the guitar market get back to pre 2006 levels? Like the real estate market, hard to say, but there is a lot of inventory (again just like the real estate market) so prices will likely be under pressure for a while.

Re: value as the baby boomers exit the market. This might not effect the market as much as some might think. There was a seismic shift in music between my parents, the Big Band/"Greatest Generation" era and me, Boomer/rock and roll. Kids today do know the music of the rock and roll era and the instruments that helped define it. When up in Maryland I often played at a open mic/bar that had a very young crowd. I felt like the granddad of the scene some nights. These kids all knew the old Neil Young, Dylan, Townes van Zandt, etc., etc. tunes I played. And they had a pretty good idea about the guitars these musicians played. They went gaga over the 1969 F-212 I brought out one time.

Interesting, we'll see. My sons will tell you that they'll never again make music like the Allman Brothers, Lynard Skynard (Still at it) and the Marshall Tucker Band. We'll see if that translates into value of old Gibsons in 25 years or so.

West

Gibsons are played by everyone, not just old timey souther rockers.

 

[chazmo]

LA,

Good point! "Protect your investment" and all that.

I would only point out to people that the fundamental difference with guitars versus, say, cars, stamps, coins, and even pure artwork is what you might call intrinsic value or utility. There's the dimension of appreciating a guitar as an instrument/tool that is often lost when speculators are in the picture.

Depending on your view of the almighty dollar, this is more or less objectionable.

 

[Willy]

[quote="West R Lee":3gcjcxun]Which is what I was saying in my first post on the topic.....that some will "invest with their personal enjoyment being the dividend".

And I, for one Sir, couldn't agree more!

Christopher[/quote:3gcjcxun]

Is there any brand out there that can give as much enjoyment value for the dollar as an old Guild? I pick up 2 or 3 every year for friends and rarely go beyond $700 to get them an outstanding instrument! The F212XL I'm playing in the video I posted this week cost me $625- and it's in amazing shape, the F112 I've also been using cost $450 - those are crazy low prices for crazy good instruments! :!:

Over the last two years purchases I've been involved in:

F112: $450
F212XL: $625
D35: <$700 (stunning sound)
Peregrine: <$300
D4CE: $450
D50: $1800 (New Hartford - new instrument)
JF30: $1200+/-

That's a whole lotta guitar(s) for around $5500 total...and to West's point, a whole lotta enjoyment!

 

[Willy]

By the way, my investment of time in locating these instruments for people pays many dividends including a ready willingness to lend them to me on a regular basis. I'm sorta like baked beans in that I give other people GAS

 

[idealassets]

I was perusing the Musician's Buy web site and was delighted to find three Guilds under their "Private Reserve" menu.... The three Guilds included in their offering are a GSR D-50, GSR F-30, and GSR F-40, all priced well below $4,000

Chritopher, Can you please PM or email the website that these guitars are on. I am studying the Guild "F's", and have a newfound liking to the D55 (see my signature). I am very interested in the GSR series.

Thank you!
Craig

 

[idealassets]

Add to that the fact that the "things with strings" that the boomers coveted
(Martin/Gibson/Guild) are not the iconic instruments of the newer generations.

As a counterpoint I would point out the guitars that I took note of at the last CMT awards shows a continuation of the current guitar trends.

Also the efforts of such artists as Roger McGuinn to impart the art of Folk and Folk/Rock to the current audiences gives me indications that its not all techno music to the younger players.

Craig

 

[Christopher Cozad]

Christopher, Can you please PM or email the website that these guitars are on. I am studying the Guild "F's", and have a newfound liking to the D55 (see my signature). I am very interested in the GSR series.

Certainly and (in a mad scramble to right a wrong) it is Musicians Friend, not Musicians Buy, where I saw our dear Guilds listed among the 70 "Private Reserve" guitars.

PM sent, Craig.

Christopher

 

[idealassets]

They went gaga over the 1969 F-212 I brought out one time.

Oh yes! The F212/ 312's are certainly a crowd pleaser.

Craig

 

[West R Lee]

[quote="West R Lee":m6qdn79b]

Interesting thread. A couple of the guitar mags have had articles on the subject. Guitar Aficionado had an article that included a chart, much like a stock equity chart. And, just like the market for stocks, real estate, yachts, R.V.'s etc. the guitar market took a pretty good hit. Now some guitar buyers are back in looking for bargains. The article also mentioned that as the prices for the iconic instruments, 59 Les Paul, pre-war Martin and Gibson flat tops, pre CBS Fenders got out of sight, prices for the secondary brands started to increase. Now very early Taylor guitars are becoming "collectable". Will the guitar market get back to pre 2006 levels? Like the real estate market, hard to say, but there is a lot of inventory (again just like the real estate market) so prices will likely be under pressure for a while.

Re: value as the baby boomers exit the market. This might not effect the market as much as some might think. There was a seismic shift in music between my parents, the Big Band/"Greatest Generation" era and me, Boomer/rock and roll. Kids today do know the music of the rock and roll era and the instruments that helped define it. When up in Maryland I often played at a open mic/bar that had a very young crowd. I felt like the granddad of the scene some nights. These kids all knew the old Neil Young, Dylan, Townes van Zandt, etc., etc. tunes I played. And they had a pretty good idea about the guitars these musicians played. They went gaga over the 1969 F-212 I brought out one time.

Interesting, we'll see. My sons will tell you that they'll never again make music like the Allman Brothers, Lynard Skynard (Still at it) and the Marshall Tucker Band. We'll see if that translates into value of old Gibsons in 25 years or so.

West

Gibsons are played by everyone, not just old timey souther rockers. [/quote:m6qdn79b]

:? Really?

West

 

[West R Lee]

Add to that the fact that the "things with strings" that the boomers coveted
(Martin/Gibson/Guild) are not the iconic instruments of the newer generations.

As a counterpoint I would point out the guitars that I took note of at the last CMT awards shows a continuation of the current guitar trends.

Also the efforts of such artists as Roger McGuinn to impart the art of Folk and Folk/Rock to the current audiences gives me indications that its not all techno music to the younger players.

Craig

I've posted a "guitar count" thread here the past couple of years during the CMA's. Gibsons absolutely dominate the acoustic field, and account for over half the electrics......have forever.

West

 

[Ravon]

I was told by a music store owner/collector 20 yrs. ago that there was a 'seven year rule' that he followed and found to be true. After the purchase of a good American made guitar the value of it will automatically drop of course. After seven years the price will be back up to the price you paid initially regardless of the economy. After that it goes up depending on the market. I found it to be true with two guitars I purchased in '95. I conciously watched the prices of those two over that period and sure enough, the price on both those guitars reached the same price seven years previous. Of course now with the quality of some Asian and other guitars are on par with US guitars it may apply to those as well. For example the '95 American Standard Strat I bought new for $500 I sold in 2011 for $700. It was just in 'Good Condition'. Anyone heard of this and have I been correct in telling people that a good guitar is a better investment than the stock market?

 

[Ravon]

Oops. Double post

 

[Scratch]

I was told by a music store owner/collector 20 yrs. ago that there was a 'seven year rule' that he followed and found to be true. After the purchase of a good American made guitar the value of it will automatically drop of course. After seven years the price will be back up to the price you paid initially regardless of the economy. After that it goes up depending on the market. I found it to be true with two guitars I purchased in '95. I conciously watched the prices of those two over that period and sure enough, the price on both those guitars reached the same price seven years previous. Of course now with the quality of some Asian and other guitars are on par with US guitars it may apply to those as well. For example the '95 American Standard Strat I bought new for $500 I sold in 2011 for $700. It was just in 'Good Condition'. Anyone heard of this and have I been correct in telling people that a good guitar is a better investment than the stock market?

My decaying/arthritic shoulders have led me to releasing a couple dread bodies and two others that were not getting playing time. My focus was on obtaining smaller body guitars and/or short scales and narrowing my herd to the few guitars that I want to spend time with. It should be noted before continuing that all four Guilds were immaculate; although it took more than I wanted to spend to get the CV-1 in that condition:

Purchased my 2005 D-40 Richie Havens Model via eBay for 750.00 (included shipping) as NOS in summer 2007. Swapped the plastic nut and saddle for bone; and had it set up for another $150 resulting in $900 'invested'. I received $1400 in trade and it is now listed at Hill Country Guitars for $1875.00.

Purchased the CV-1 as a new MIRC 'used' guitar in 2008 for $900 (included shipping). Put about $400 more into it for a total of $1300 'invested'. I got $1000 for it (in trade) which is more than I expected. I was up front about the problems and included all the luthier's repair papers... The same music store has it listed for 1350.

These two guitars with $2200 'invested' were traded for the 2003 slope shoulder, short scale Gibson J-45r Custom; listed on the wall at $2600


Purchased the G312 for $1400 in October 2007 and added an LR Baggs M1. Including a set up, I had about $1600 'invested'. I got $1450 for it in trade.

The Guitar Shop owner had been lusting for the F212CNT for a while. I purchased it in July 2008 and had $1150 'invested'. Dwayne gave me $1800 for it.

Both guitars (2750 invested) were traded even up for the Santa Cruz OM/PW; (MSRP 3900,) listed on the wall at $3125.00.

His pricing on the two 12 stringers are well up there (website says call for pricing). He had and turned down a $2200.00 offer for the F212CNT last week. He's in no hurry to sell either 12 string; he says they both turn heads.

Dwayne also likes the GF-25, but that one stays here...

I don't think this experience is typical, but I have certainly noticed eBay prices on Guilds as significantly higher than two to four years ago. Bottom line: Know what your guitars are worth in your market area (I had researched with luthiers, guitar shop owners and players for their opinions); take real good care of 'em and hold on a few years. You'll most-likely come out OK.

 

[Ravon]

I must say too that I purchased an Ovation Elite in the '90's and paid between $800 and $900 for it but I don't think after nearly twenty years that they're bringing near that (I haven't looked in a while) , so I can honestly say it doesn't apply to every quality US made guitar. Guess it may just be the Ovation brand as they're poo poo'd quite often. Though the one I've got has a deep bowl and is as loud, projects as well and has as beautiful ringing tone as any acoustic guitar I've played, the prejudices remain. But I think you'd be safe owning a Martin, Taylor, Gibson, Fender or Guild.

 

[Scratch]

I must say too that I purchased an Ovation Elite in the '90's and paid between $800 and $900 for it but I don't think after nearly twenty years that they're bringing near that (I haven't looked in a while) , so I can honestly say it doesn't apply to every quality US made guitar. Guess it may just be the Ovation brand as they're poo poo'd quite often. Though the one I've got has a deep bowl and is as loud, projects as well and has as beautiful ringing tone as any acoustic guitar I've played, the prejudices remain. But I think you'd be safe owning a Martin, Taylor, Gibson, Fender or Guild.

Hard to figure, Ravon. I've played some Ovations that sound very nice. I think it has to do with the plastic vs. wood.

Fender electrics gain in value, but their acoustic line is pathetic. I understand they are trying to introduce some better quality Fender brand acoustics. Someone here posted, I believe, that Fender is using molds at/from the NH facility? That logic escapes me considering they have a 'quality' lineup with their Guilds. Of course I've never understood how they 'handle' Guild marketing.

 

[West R Lee]

I'll have to say that I've traded a few guitars over the years, and made money on one of them.....broke even on the rest. But making money was never my intention, playing the guitars for a while was.

If you're not in a hurry (which is always nice) and patient, I've found that unless you've paid a fortune for a guitar, you'll get your money back. I've got a couple right now that I'd sell to recoup my money, but man I hate to let ANY of them go.

West

 

[evenkeel]

For example the '95 American Standard Strat I bought new for $500 I sold in 2011 for $700. It was just in 'Good Condition'. Anyone heard of this and have I been correct in telling people that a good guitar is a better investment than the stock market?

If you factor inflation into the equation then things look a bit different. $500 in 1995 equals about $725 in 2011, so you basically came out even, factoring in inflation. Lots of us would like to time travel back to 1939 and scoop up a Martin D-45 for $200. $200 in 1939 equals about $3,500 today. A new D-45 will set you back about $7-8k so even with inflation a pretty good deal. The value of that 1939 D-45 today?? Now that $200 investment in 1939 really looks sweet :!: :!:

The Dow ended 1995 at about 5,100. Today it's at 11,866.
So, better than the stock market? Short answer is it depends on the guitar.

 

[fronobulax]

have I been correct in telling people that a good guitar is a better investment than the stock market?

That is an attitude that I violently disagree with. I posted the original article because it suggests that I might not be as right as I think I am although the article does not convince me. However if you are going to buy a guitar now because you expect to sell it for more later ("investing" or "speculating" - take your pick) then I certainly expect that a) you had better be spending at least $10,000 now and b) you had better plan on not playing the instrument and hope it doesn't need a neck reset during your stewardship. Personally, I'd put my $10,000 in the stock market, not the Gibson/Martin/Fender market.

A lot of folks have missed what I thought was my point. I was never suggesting that buying a guitar was a "bad" thing or that it was difficult to get all of your money back out of the purchase or that owing a guitar did not pay dividends that cannot be measured in dollars. My point was that if you have money and are trying to make more money then buying guitars was still probably not the best way to make more money.

 

[davismanLV]

I got it, frono. I do think some people missed the point of your post. To my mind you were talking about INVESTMENT GUITARS.... not guitars that hold their value or players that you can resell and not lose too much money. That's a whole different topic.

That I can now sell my 94 Guild for possibly a few more dollars than I paid for it, doesn't mean I can retire tomorrow. OR next week.

 

[Ravon]

have I been correct in telling people that a good guitar is a better investment than the stock market?

That is an attitude that I violently disagree with. I posted the original article because it suggests that I might not be as right as I think I am although the article does not convince me. However if you are going to buy a guitar now because you expect to sell it for more later ("investing" or "speculating" - take your pick) then I certainly expect that a) you had better be spending at least $10,000 now and b) you had better plan on not playing the instrument and hope it doesn't need a neck reset during your stewardship. Personally, I'd put my $10,000 in the stock market, not the Gibson/Martin/Fender market.

A lot of folks have missed what I thought was my point. I was never suggesting that buying a guitar was a "bad" thing or that it was difficult to get all of your money back out of the purchase or that owing a guitar did not pay dividends that cannot be measured in dollars. My point was that if you have money and are trying to make more money then buying guitars was still probably not the best way to make more money.

Don't hit me man! Not the face! Not the face!.........