Guild Guitar Tops

Taylor Martin Guild

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I have noticed over the years, that there are a lot of Guild guitars that have tops that show a different shades of color on each side of the top.
Hard to explain but the left side doesn't look look like it's the match to the right side.
Have any of you experienced this?
My JF-30-12 was noticably that way and my D-55 is slightly different on each side.
I also see this on some of the ebay listings.
Did Guild use 2 different pieces of wood to make their tops?
I always thought that tops were one piece of wood that was butterfly cut and then glued together.
 

cjd-player

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Taylor Martin Guild said:
I always thought that tops were one piece of wood that was butterfly cut and then glued together.
Yes, it's called bookmatching. You split or saw cut the board then open the two halves like a book. The grain and figure in the two pieces match at the joint.

Some believe that truely premium tops don't show any runnout. But there have been numerous discussions on the acoustic guitar forum as to whether or not runnout effects tone, with no conclusive answers. Highter runnout angles do lessen the stiffness of the wood, but that is not necessarly bad for a guitar top. It certainly efects the aestetics of a guitar, and is usually, 'though not exclusively, more prevalent runnout (higher runnout angles) is seen in lower-priced guitars. I suspect that lumber suppliers charge a premium for the absence of runnout only because of the cosmetics.
 

Taylor Martin Guild

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So you can get more guitar tops out of 1 tree when you accept runout.
The pictures in the link is just what my JF-30-12 looked like.
So it had runout I guess.
It this common in guitar makers?
 

evenkeel

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Nice link, FNG. Very informative.

My D35 has exactly the light/dark quality in discussion. Less so the D60. Now I know why :!: :!: :D :D

D35andD60.jpg
 

guildzilla

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Very helpful link, Pat.

Here is something I've noticed about Westerly Guild tops.

On the highest grade instruments, one seldom sees a top with any bear claw figure, even though many luthiers consider bear claw to be highly desirable.

OTOH, you see a lot of bear claw in the second line Guild guitars, such as DV-52's, JF-30-12's, etc.

And, entry level Guild acoustics, like the D-25, very seldom show any bear claw.

This has led me to the tentative speculation that Guild was very deliberate in how it used the bear claw-ish tops in its inventory.
 

killdeer43

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Taylor Martin Guild said:
I have noticed over the years, that there are a lot of Guild guitars that have tops that show a different shades of color on each side of the top.
At a certain angle, the top on my D50 shows different shades, while my D35 does not and looks like a single piece of wood.
Of course, my D25 M shows nothing but dark on both sides. It looks like a deep-burgundy beauty. :wink:

They all sound great, BTW!
Joe
 

devellis

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Tops are graded by appearance. Bear claw used to be considered a defect and thus it resulted in those boards getting a lower grade. The pricier models got the higher grade woods and thus got less bear claw. More recently, people have recognized that bear claw, especially when extensive and symmetrical, is very attractive. Also, Dana Bourgeois, who is something of an expert on top voicing, argues that bear claw tends to occur in trees that yield stiffer wood with a higher sound velocity, which he considers desirable properties for tops (because their stiffness allows them to be shaved thinner and that, coupled with the higher sound velocity, makes them very responsive). So suddenly, bear claw is a good thing.

Run out happens for two reasons: either the wood wasn't perfectly quarter sawn or the grain in the log didn't run parallel to the quarter plane. By all accounts, it has no impact on tone. Some consider it a minor cosmetic imperfection, in the same way that silking is considered a cosmetic enhancement. Silking (evidence of lateral tubules in the wood) indicates wood that has been cut perfectly on the quarter (i.e., perfectly on a plane passing through the center of the log).

Run out occurs when the tubular wood fibers don't terminate at the edge of the board but at the surface. It's as if the tubule has its origin slightly behind the plane of the guitar top at one end of the board and slightly in front of that plane at the other end. The cut didn't run exactly parallel to the axis of the tubules but at a slight angle.

Imagine a great big clump of soda straws, bundled together like a log with the openings at top and bottom and then imagine taking a machete and making an angular, downward slash that enters the "log" of straws at about the middle and exits at the bottom -- kind of like you'd do to make the bottom end wedge-shaped. So the top half is still more or less cylindrical and the bottom half is curved on the back but flat on the front, getting progressively thinner front-to-back as you work your way down. What you'd then have is a clump of straws whose top half revealed the convex, outer surfaces of the straws and whose lower half (below the start of the slash) revealed the concave inner surfaces of straws that had their front portion cut away by the machete slash. If you shone a light from above, it would reflect more off of the upper half than the bottom half, where each concave straw surface would create some shadow.

A board that is bookmatched has been split longitudinally. If the tubules aren't exactly parallel to the split, then they get cut in a manner similar to the straws. When laid open, the two boards have opposite orientations, with the slash closest to the surface of the tubules at the top of one board and at the bottom of the other (because the slash was angular). So, when the light is bouncing off of the bottom of one side (thus looking lighter), it's falling into the nooks and crannies (and looking darker) on the bottom portion of the other side of the guitar top. Change the angle of the light and the light-dark orientation will reverse. This is called a harlequin pattern because often, at the top half of the guitar, the left will be light while the right is dark; and at the bottom half, the pattern will be reversed. this reminded someone of the classic clown Harlequin, who wore an outfit with similar reverse dark-light patterns at the top and bottom halves.

My personal an ever-so-slightly uneven miter joint for the binding in a particularly tricky area, like the headstock of a Guild. It isn't going to affect the tone at all. If it's small, you might not be able to even see it unless you look with a magnifier. It would be better for there not to be any unevenness but if there were, it wouldn't be a big issue. Now consider (hypothetically) an instrument that sounded just as good as your Guild but cost half as much. A binding joint imperfection on such a guitar would be even less of an issue. Even with a significant binding issue, such a guitar would be a spectacular deal, to put it mildly. Now consider an instrument that sounded just like your Guild but cost twice as much. At that price premium, even a teeny imperfection in a binding joint would be very irritating to me.

Run out is kind of the same. At some price point, a higher standard of perfection is a reasonable expectation but at no price point does run out actually change the sound of a guitar. I'd rather not have it (especially as the price of a guitar climbs) but it wouldn't be a deal breaker on a top quality factory-built guitar I otherwise liked. You'll see it frequently on Martins, guilds, Taylors, etc. you probably won't on most Goodalls, Bourgeoises, Froggy Bottoms, etc. But it in no way signifies an inferior instrument.
 

adorshki

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On my '25 the dark edges are butted up against each other in the center, it looks like it's got a racing stripe as wide as the bridge. I like it. :)
 

devellis

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I don't think that's run out. It's just variation in grain coloring. When the top is bookmatched (or that back, for that matter) the color variation ends up laterally symmetrical. Yeah, the racing strip look can be very cool.
 

Taylor Martin Guild

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This brings up another question.
Do guitar builders buy the wood already cut?
I would think that some do and others may not.
I know that Taylor Guitars buys trees in bulk and then has them processed somewhere.
Does Guild do this or is their wood already cut when they buy it?
 

adorshki

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devellis said:
I don't think that's run out. It's just variation in grain coloring. When the top is bookmatched (or that back, for that matter) the color variation ends up laterally symmetrical. Yeah, the racing strip look can be very cool.
Oh yeah, I was just describing it for the record and it happened to come right after yours. The whole top has become more amber-colored with age (sunlight exposure I think) so it's very pronounced now. Your post was very cool, much appreciated, a little "meat" to balance all the fun we have around here.
 

adorshki

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Taylor Martin Guild said:
This brings up another question.
Do guitar builders buy the wood already cut?
I would think that some do and others may not.
I know that Taylor Guitars buys trees in bulk and then has them processed somewhere.
Does Guild do this or is their wood already cut when they buy it?
What do you actually mean by "already cut"? I could interpret that a couple of different ways. I know that in a photo tour of Westerly you could see a pile of neck blocks stacked up waiting to be made into necks, and I think I remember reading about sheets of veneer being purchased from a traditional furniture veneer source to make laminated backs in one of the threads about laminated backs, but the actual shaping of tops and backs was done in the factory. Sides? Don't know. SOunds like a question for Hideglue or WorkedinWesterly.
 

kostask

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I can't say what the factories do, but the people I know that hand build guitars buy guitar tops of whatever wood (Sitka/Engleman/Adirondack Spruce, or Cedar) that is cut to some thickness, and size that is larger than the final size. They then (usually) sticker it (stack it with spacers) for anywhere from a few months to a few years in their own shop. When the time comes to build, the will rough cut the shape out, and thickness sand it to something more than the final thickness, but still significantly thinner than the thickness it arrived at. Final thickness will be arrived at during the top voicing process, both stand alone, and with braces on. After the top is attached to the rest of the sound box, the edges will be trimmed to final shape during the process of making the binding ledge.

The more common suppliers of top wood are the two "big suppliers", namely LMI and Allied, but there are many others, less well known, that can have guitar tops of good to outstanding quality.

Jean Larrivee, and I believe Bob Taylor often go out to the actual forests to pick entire logs or even trees out, that are then sent to a wood mill to be cut, and the tops are sent to their factories. One Sitka Spruce tree can provide thousands of tops, if it is a full sized tree. Some of the smaller factories would buy flitches of wood, sort of wood wedges, that they have cut into tops.

Kostas
 

cjd-player

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Taylor actually gets most of their top woods from Pacific Rim Tonewoods. They purchase the precut and dried boards, then resaw and glue up the tops.
http://www.pacificrimtonewoods.com/

Martin, Gibson, and Fender are also listed as links on the Pacific Rim Tonewoods website, so I suspect they do the same thing. I imagine that Fender buys the wood for Guild.
 
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