Guild 12 Strings VS. Taylors

[wileypickett]

Hello LTG'ers,

I'm new to site. My name is Glenn Jones; I'm based in Cambridge, MA.

I'm a recent Guild convert. I was seduced by a Westerly JF-30 (I picked it up for a song about a year ago), which soon replaced my Taylor 855 in my affections. It's now my 12-string of choice.

I used it for one track on my next album (it needed a little setting up before it was ready to handle a full set), and my engineer and I were both impressed by how beautifully it tracked.

Hans Moust's book was next, followed by a pilgrimage to the old Westerly plant (I'll post pictures if folks like), and then the discovery of this site.

Since then, I've managed to latch onto a Westerly 512, and last week I purchased James Knox's Hoboken F112 on eBay, which I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival of.

(Why do I suddenly feel as though I'm introducing myself to an AA group!?)

QUESTION I HAVE FOR YOU GUILD EXPERTS:

In one of the issues of Wood & Steel, Taylor's house organ, Bob Taylor, who made a brief stab in his early days at imitating Guild's double truss-rod system, gave it up, saying cryptically, years later, "It doesn't really work."

Does anyone know why he might think it doesn't work?

I'm curious, as I think the best Guild 12-strings beat the best of anyone else's 12-strings. I'm not suggesting the double truss rod system is the reason they sound better, but it is a Guild innovation, and given that they were obviously doing many things right when it came to designing and building 12-string guitars, I'm wondering why a maker of Taylor's stature, who, having tried it, would reject it.

Having tried virtually every 12-string out there, I think Guild's are head-and-shoulders above everyone else's, with the possible exception of Martin's pre-1969 D-12-35, which although it has a very different sound, manages to be loud and clear throughout it's tonal range. (Like Guild, each pair of strings is clear -- the sound doesn't turn into a cloud of mud when fingerpicked quickly.)

Cheers!

Glenn//.
Cambridge, MA

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

One guess for me would be that Taylor 12 strings do have a very nice and playable neck.
I don't think that there would be room for a double truss rod in a Taylor neck.

I have said for years that I would love a 12 string made from a Guild Body and a Taylor Neck.
I just don't know how people would react to a Guilor Guitar.

 

[Tunes]

Glenn,

Big welcome to LTG site. Enter and find many wondrous sites and sounds. A site like no other. AA may be an apt description - we support each other in good times and bad, with a common "problem" - we love Guilds just a little too much, it is a sickness.

 

[12 string]

Always glad to have another inmate in the assylum!

One possible problem about the dual truss rod system is that you sometimes see parallel cracks going down the back of the neck, or delamination of the three pieces of the neck. My F-112 developed such a crack and my G-312 had such a delamination. Pretty easy fixes for both situations, wicking in some red epoxy.

I think what Taylor said is that the dual truss rods were not necessary. I would say that for the most part this is true, but once or twice I've resolved a twist by tweaking just one side and not the other. If I could have I would have done this on my koa Taylor; it was repaired under warranty, I couldn't do it myself. On this forum we were taken aback a while ago seeing a new F-512 with only a single rod. I can't agree that dual rods don't work, but in my experience needing them or wanting them has been very rare.

I love Guild and Taylors just as I love grand pianos and harpsichords. I don't expect them to be the same.

I think TMG is correct about the thinness of Taylor necks making dual rods difficult to impossible.

We have lots of 12 string lovers here, I'm sure they'll be checking in.

' Strang

 

[chazmo]

Glenn,

Welcome aboard. And greetings from the Worcester area.

 

[stclrob]

I got to putz around with a Hoboken F212 for a month and thought it was a hell of a 12er. I can see how some wouldn't like the neck, it was REALLY wide. Sounded fantastic and was hard to give up!

Welcome, btw and congrats on already having the maple, 'hog, and rosewood arsenal!

 

[jazzmang]

pilgrimage to the old Westerly plant (I'll post pictures if folks like)

Yes, please. That'd be amazing!

 

[markus]

Glenn, welcome to our kind of AA group!
Waiting for your pics …
(sorry, don't know much about 12-strings)
Markus

 

[cuthbert]

QUESTION I HAVE FOR YOU GUILD EXPERTS:

In one of the issues of Wood & Steel, Taylor's house organ, Bob Taylor, who made a brief stab in his early days at imitating Guild's double truss-rod system, gave it up, saying cryptically, years later, "It doesn't really work."

Does anyone know why he might think it doesn't work?

Mmm, I can't say that I'm a Guild expert, but I know something about Taylor and his "character", he is a man with a personal concept of the instrument, and there's nothing wrong with that, if he simply copied a Guild, he wouldn't have become what he is now.

He had to invent something that made his 12 strings different, by the way, I think that the double truss-rod was patented, and he needed to give a justification to do that, so I wouldn't take his "cryptical" answer too seriously, unlesse he comes on this board and enlighten us on the reasons why that technical solution doesn't work.

As far as I remember, nobody before Guild and Ovation ever built a 12 strings with a neck robust enough to give an action as low as a normal 6 strings, that instrument was tuned in C in order to lower the tension as far as I remember, Guild chose the double rod configuration to solve the problem, Ovation used a graphite reinforced neck AFAIK.

 

[capnjuan]

[quote='Strang] One possible problem about the dual truss rod system is that you sometimes see parallel cracks going down the back of the neck, or delamination of the three pieces of the neck....[/quote] ... and it represents a manufacturing cost/trade off decision; the time and risk of messing up the neck drilling/routing the rod channels v. the relatively few times when tweaking one but not the other rod is necessary. Don't know the nut width on a generic Taylor 12 but the 1 7/8" (typ.) Guild nut allows enough space for the second rod; a neck that is measurably narrower or shallower would increase the mfrg risk of failure and maybe the chance of rod-induced neck fractures too.

Hi Glenn, welcome to LTG, and congratulations on your new F112! John

 

[JerryR]

Hi Glenn - it is a bit like AA here (so I'm told, as I don't have a drink problem. I drink, get drunk, fall down, no problem), only the members don't have a booze problem - it's GAS

 

[Graham]

Welcome Glenn, I have a JF30-12 as well, wonderful easy to play guitar.

I don't know why they sound better than other 12's, but they sure do!

 

[john_kidder]

Ovation used a graphite reinforced neck AFAIK.

Don't have my ancient Ovation Pacemaker 1115-4 around any more (my brother's got it) but I think I recall a 5-piece laminated neck, no graphite that I know of, always kept it tuned to pitch, same as my G312.

 

[dreadnut]

Hi Glenn, I'm Marc and I'm a Guildophile

I sold my F-512 primarily for one reason: because the neck was too wide for me. My fingers are about the shape of Twinkies, so it was really a stretch. Real bummer, because that guitar was absolutely made for fingerpicking LedZep's "Goin' To California"

Never heard a better 12 string though. Played a 412 one time that was just as nice.

 

[kitniyatran]

Welcome aboard. I'm not a 12 stringer, but always understood they were about as good as a 12 can get; & tunable up to pitch.

 

[Scratch]

Welcome aboard, Glenn. I've owned/played all kinds of 12ers; I kept the Guilds... Have fun...

 

[kostask]

Ovation used a graphite reinforced neck AFAIK.

Don't have my ancient Ovation Pacemaker 1115-4 around any more (my brother's got it) but I think I recall a 5-piece laminated neck, no graphite that I know of, always kept it tuned to pitch, same as my G312.

Hi,

I have a Pacemaker from the late 1970s/early 1980s. Pretty solid guitar, fairly nice sounding for an Ovation. Mine has the 5 piece laminated neck, slotted headstock, through bridge (like all Ovations) and finish cracks in the top. I wonder if the good sound is related to the 12 fret to the body design, the deep bowl, or perhaps some unique bracing system (maybe all 3?). I don't play it much, but do tune it down when I put it away.

Kostas

 

[Spectrum13]

Just like to add... I had a couple of 12 Rickenbacker's in the 60's. Both had thin necks and double truss rods and super low action.

 

[krysh]

pilgrimage to the old Westerly plant (I'll post pictures if folks like)

Yes, please. That'd be amazing!

+1 and this is the GAS group :mrgreen:

 

[count savage]

I posted here a while ago that I had a new Tacoma 12-string with the new single truss rod. Guild says it's a stronger tougher truss rod than if it were a normal single. From my experience so far, it's not an issue, though I do tune it down to standard D, but then use medium guage strings for more bass. That said, I have an F 512 and there isn't another 12-string acoustic guitar model in the world that I would trade for it. I have always thought it was the ONE. I still think that. I have no intention of trading or selling it, ever. That said, I'm not at all adverse to having other 12-strings. Would love to have a Larrivee hog, and some custom 12s. But forced to have just one, which I am, the Guild is the one. Congratulations on your good sense and taste!