graphite neck-block bolt-on neck system

[vehement]

Wondering if anyone knows can answer this question. I see that the Guild Contemporary series CV, CD, and CO all have the patented graphite neck-block bolt-on neck system, but most of the CV models also include in their description "Sound-Directing Graphite Spider Support System, Dual Locked Graphite Neck Reinforcement Tubes". Is this feature limited to only the CVs, or do they also have them on the COs and CDs? Thanks!

 

[chazmo]

vehement,

The 2006 Guild catalog (from Tacoma) describes the neck block system as "Contemporary Series models feature the patent-applied-for Guild Neck Block System for increased playability, superb sustain and soundboard/neck-joint stability. Additionall, Contemporary Series guitars feature a strap pin brace and a factory-installed strap pin."

It turns out the latter was adopted by the entire Guild product line (including Traditional series) by 2008.

So, the answer to your question appears to be all of the Contemporaries would have it. I assume the Willy Porter also has it.

 

[vehement]

Oh, was wondering if the "Sound-Directing Graphite Spider Support System, Dual Locked Graphite Neck Reinforcement Tubes" were also used on the CO's, as i see they are mentioned on the descriptions for CV's.

 

[chazmo]

Ah, sorry, I misread your post. Thanks for clarifying, and unfortunately I have no idea. I don't know what all that refers to.

 

[capnjuan]

Oh, was wondering if the "Sound-Directing Graphite Spider Support System, Dual Locked Graphite Neck Reinforcement Tubes" were also used on the CO's, as i see they are mentioned on the descriptions for CV's.

Hi vehement; the 'sound-directing' spider was/is an element of the neck-block system ... see below:

The reinforcement tube is described here: US Patent information. It was/is a rectangular graphite tube running the length of the neck under the finger board. If you go to the patent page, down at the bottom there's a link to drawings. Viewing those drawings is a function of whatever plug-ins your browser is using ... you may or may not be able to view them.

As far as anyone has been able to tell, all the Contemporary models ... COs, CVs have the neck-block and support tube features; Guild's webpage used to tout these features as standard on their Contemporary or 'C' models. Since FMIC has never publicly discussed the rise and fall of the neck-block, questions like yours can't be answered with certainty. More discussion in this LTG thread.

 

[vehement]

Thanks for the info!

 

[chazmo]

Man, doesn't the inside of that axe look great...??? *except* for that ugly aberration of a strap button anchor. You'd think they would've incorporated the strap button anchor in the neck block, wouldn't you?

 

[guildzilla]

Looks great. But the neck block system didn't work. :lol:

 

[zplay]

Looks great. But the neck block system didn't work. :lol:

Not really so, 'zilla. Perhaps other CV owners will comment, but in my experience with this model, the neck block has done what it's supposed to when the neck is properly set. Unfortunately, they apparently were having production problems with it in Tacoma and a good percentage of poorly assembled necks came out. Now maybe there's something in the design that makes proper assembly difficult, I don't know. I do know that in the case of the CV I own, that my guitar tech had no difficulty unbolting and resetting the neck on mine and now it plays and sounds very good.

 

[capnjuan]

Looks great. But the neck block system didn't work. :lol:

Not really so, 'zilla. Perhaps other CV owners will comment, but in my experience with this model, the neck block has done what it's supposed to when the neck is properly set. Unfortunately, they apparently were having production problems with it in Tacoma and a good percentage of poorly assembled necks came out. Now maybe there's something in the design that makes proper assembly difficult, I don't know. I do know that in the case of the CV I own, that my guitar tech had no difficulty unbolting and resetting the neck on mine and now it plays and sounds very good.

Hi Zplay; I know that your C model and several others that belong to members here are fine quality and represent money well-spent.

Starting in late '08 and continuing into '09, dozens and dozens of 'used'/no-warranty 'C' models started showing up on eBay. If the cosmetic blems that the sellers cited as the reason for the 'used'/no-warranty 'C' designation were as minor as the sellers made/make them out to be and because a guitar with a warranty commands a better price than one that doesn't, it would have been in Guild's economic interest to repair the blemishes; that is, Guild could have fixed all these blemished guitars but it decided not to.

I don't know whether 'C' model sales didn't meet expectations, whether they cost more than the price point could support ... or both. For whatever reasons, Guild decided to drop both the models and the system. Arguably, if it were so good technically, it would have been adopted for use on the traditional F and D models and in use today ... but that isn't the case.

One inference is that Guild didn't rehabilitate all those cosmetically-challenged 'C' models ... if that's what they really were ... because they didn't want to put themselves on the warranty hook for all the years to come. It isn't unreasonable to believe that Guild wanted out from under a model that was intimately associated with the neck block; ... weak sales ... higher-than-expected costs ... maybe ... and just maybe they wanted to wash their hands of the neck block system altogether so they dumped whatever inventory that had and buried the write off - the spread between their value as inventory and recovery by liquidation - in the cost of the plant closing/move.

'Zilla isn't saying they're bad, I'm not saying they're bad ... but if the neck block system was such an outstanding innovation, why aren't NH Guilds fitted with them?

 

[guildzilla]

I should have noted that this was/is just my opinion and not one informed by personal experience. I'm actually extremely curious about these guitars, but unwilling to pay to see the hole card. Sometimes it's difficult to discuss this stuff without stepping on toes. I certainly know nothing about your guitar, zplay, which may be a great guitar yesterday, today and 20 years from tomorrow. No offense intended.

Nevertheless, I don't trust the contemporary neck block system to stand the test of time. Judging by all the blems/seconds being sold without a warranty, it doesn't appear that FMIC trusts them either. Plus, FMIC appears to have stopped using it (after an awful lot of positive hype). These may be the wrong inferences to draw, but seem strong enough evidence to me.

 

[adorshki]

'Zilla isn't saying they're bad, I'm not saying they're bad ... but if the neck block system was such an outstanding innovation, why aren't NH Guilds fitted with them?

When it was good it was very very good and when it was bad it was horrid? :lol:
Another consideration might be that lack of patent. They might not have wanted to invest in that system only to watch others rip it off. My suspicion is it was dropped for all the above reasons and maybe a couple more we'll never know about. Who knows they might be desirable rare birds someday, kind of like Corvairs.

 

[capnjuan]

'Zilla isn't saying they're bad, I'm not saying they're bad ... but if the neck block system was such an outstanding innovation, why aren't NH Guilds fitted with them?

... Another consideration might be that lack of patent. Or that Guild, seeing that it didn't work the way they wanted it to, elected not to pursue a patent. In the web tout, it was described as 'patent applied for'. They might not have wanted to invest in that system only to watch others rip it off. If it's patented, anyone using it legally would have to pay royalties. If it worked well but was never patented, then another mfr could adopt it for use. I don't follow new guitars all that closely but I don't know of anybody using it ... do you? My suspicion is it was dropped for all the above reasons and maybe a couple more we'll never know about. Yes; it could always be something else ... speaking of royalties ... could have been royalty fights with the patent holder ... for example, the 'tube' patent is not in Guild's name. Who knows they might be desirable rare birds someday, kind of like Corvairs. You're right provided the necks are manageable.

C model owner: 'Dig my vintage Guild with a neck block system'
Friend: 'Hey that's great ... how's the action on it?'
C model owner: ' well ... it's unplayable but it sure looks great'

But you're right; the fact is Guild is out of the C model/neck block business ... and since FMIC isn't going to explain why, anybody's speculation is as good as anyone else's.

 

[adorshki]

But you're right; the fact is Guild is out of the C model/neck block business ... and since FMIC isn't going to explain why, anybody's speculation is as good as anyone else's.

Free marketplace of ideas! Is this a great place or what? :lol:

 

[chazmo]

'Zilla isn't saying they're bad, I'm not saying they're bad ... but if the neck block system was such an outstanding innovation, why aren't NH Guilds fitted with them?

... Another consideration might be that lack of patent. Or that Guild, seeing that it didn't work the way they wanted it to, elected not to pursue a patent. In the web tout, it was described as 'patent applied for'. They might not have wanted to invest in that system only to watch others rip it off. If it's patented, anyone using it legally would have to pay royalties. If it worked well but was never patented, then another mfr could adopt it for use. I don't follow new guitars all that closely but I don't know of anybody using it ... do you? My suspicion is it was dropped for all the above reasons and maybe a couple more we'll never know about. Yes; it could always be something else ... speaking of royalties ... could have been royalty fights with the patent holder ... for example, the 'tube' patent is not in Guild's name. Who knows they might be desirable rare birds someday, kind of like Corvairs. You're right provided the necks are manageable.

C model owner: 'Dig my vintage Guild with a neck block system'
Friend: 'Hey that's great ... how's the action on it?'
C model owner: ' well ... it's unplayable but it sure looks great'

But you're right; the fact is Guild is out of the C model/neck block business ... and since FMIC isn't going to explain why, anybody's speculation is as good as anyone else's.

cjd-player asked about the neck block system in the LMG questions thread. It's a perfectly valid question, and I'll let you guys know if we get an answer.

 

[zplay]

Hey Guys, no offense taken. I certainly understand why people would be wary of this neck block system and, ironically, i think I was one of the first here to raise concerns about it. I just think it's ashame to lose sight of the positives in this design and in these guitars in general. Obviously, it's safe to say that this system proved to be more trouble than it was worth, especially when the word-of-mouth on them started going negative and the warranty claims began. And clearly it was more than a "cosmetic" issue.
But, there are Contemporaries out there that are very good guitars, probably at least in part due to the function of the neck assembly system, which was my main point, I think.
And with that said, I'll shut up, as my own neck assembly is tired.

 

[capnjuan]

... But, there are Contemporaries out there that are very good guitars, probably at least in part due to the function of the neck assembly system, which was my main point, I think.

Hi Z: Guild got my A for effort ... somebody went to a lot of trouble to work out a complex fix for guitar production and maintenance problems.

Anyone who has ever done any wood- or metal-working and spent time fitting parts together in a trial-and-error manner ... the way necks are fitted in traditional dovetails ... can appreciate how an engineered solution would give faster, more uniform results. Admittedly at the loss of some of the craftsmanship that has historically gone into guitars ... transitioning from charming Old World ideals into the CNC machine age.

I don't know about '60s Guilds but a number of the '70s and '80s models frequently have those nagging cracks running alongside the tail of the fingerboard intersecting the soundhole. Apart from addressing speed of assembly and downstream neck issues, that block system looks like it would help keep the neck from tectonically ramming the body. It's possible that the cracks come from failure of brace-to-deck glue joints in the forward bouts but however they occur, the block system ties the fingerboard to it with bolts and the spider spreads the neck-to-body string pressure uniformly across the top. If FMIC wants to spray around marketing jizz like 'tone-enhancing spider' ... well ... they are trying to sell to artists and us wannabes ... not engineers who might be more impressed that somebody had worked out a solution to a chronic problem.

Anyway and except for tubes, nature abhors a vacuum and my speculation about the end of the neck block is an effort to rationalize why they'd bastardize so many of their guitars by selling them off the loading dock without warranties instead of just cutting them up. I think that one of the prettiest guitars ever showcased here is Scratch's C model over in the Trainwreck neck thread. The sad part is that Guild's decision - maybe the Law of Unintended Consequences at work here - enables shady reclaimers/resellers to represent that the 'used' designation is a function of cosmetic blemishes ... and that isn't true.

I hope you get years of tone and pleasure out of yours; SitkaSpruce has done nothing but rave about his Willy Porter and I don't have any reason to think that good ones aren't fine example of what Guild and the people in Tacoma could do.

 

[zplay]

Well, that's very nice analysis and summation of the whole graphite neck assembly saga, CJ,
to which I'll only add "Amen".

This thread seems about ready for a veer, so let me pose a question about the "warming up" process with a newish guitar: I was reminded of this when this thread inspired me to pick up play my CV-2C last night, but it certainly doesn't just apply to this type guitar. Anyway, what I seem to observe is that the volume/responsiveness of the top is not right there when I first start playing, but really seems to come on after 10 minutes or so of playing. I wonder if others notice this with their guitars and, if so, they've concluded it's a function of the top wood or construction versus player variables, e.g. style of attack adjusting to the guitar or ears adjusting somehow? - Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[adorshki]

Anyway, what I seem to observe is that the volume/responsiveness of the top is not right there when I first start playing, but really seems to come on after 10 minutes or so of playing. I wonder if others notice this with their guitars and, if so, they've concluded it's a function of the top wood or construction versus player variables, e.g. style of attack adjusting to the guitar or ears adjusting somehow? - Inquiring minds want to know!

First thing to my mind was I noticed a few years back that my D25 DEFINITELY sounds louder in warmer temperatures. I'm thinking maybe glue softens up a small amount allowing more top resonance. The other thing I just thought of is maybe the strings themselves, from being warmer, have an actual larger oscillation, this would also explain your perception.

 

[zplay]

Anyway, what I seem to observe is that the volume/responsiveness of the top is not right there when I first start playing, but really seems to come on after 10 minutes or so of playing. I wonder if others notice this with their guitars and, if so, they've concluded it's a function of the top wood or construction versus player variables, e.g. style of attack adjusting to the guitar or ears adjusting somehow? - Inquiring minds want to know!

First thing to my mind was I noticed a few years back that my D25 DEFINITELY sounds louder in warmer temperatures. I'm thinking maybe glue softens up a small amount allowing more top resonance. The other thing I just thought of is maybe the strings themselves, from being warmer, have an actual larger oscillation, this would also explain your perception.

That's interesting: the temperature angle never occurred to me, particularly with regard to the strings. But, if they did become warm enough, I guess it makes sense they could become more pliant and easier to oscillate. On the other hand, I'd also expect some stretching and maybe decrease tension, akin to a shorter scale, which should have a quieting effect.