Further discussion on Guild's tuner use...

[Bill Ashton]

Just as Chaz moved a thread that was wandering to a new one, I will attempt to do the same and maybe get some further discussion on different tuner styles and use. I must be at least partially responsible for that diversion, as I noted the new D55's had what I though to be lesser hardware.

Personally, I think I am probably a Kluson or Kluson-clone kinda guy. All my Fenders have had them, my newer MIM Fenders have them (probably Pings) and my Gibson J-30 has Gibson-branded look-alikes. To me, that is what a tuner is supposed to feel and operate like. Never any problems. My son bought Gotoh-Klusons for a Jimmy Page project-tele he was doing and the previous applies to those as well.

I understand Waverlys are supposed to be the be-all and end-all. My new GAD30PCE has Waverly-lookalike Grovers. They look good and work well, if a bit stiff. I do not like them however as I find the "butter-bean" handle just doesn't feel right to me, especially when changing strings and making a lot of turns. Its obnoxious.

My new (Tacoma) D55 has Grover Tunamatics (??), which I have seen for years but never had the pleasure of using. Pure luxury. While I can't say I love the big button look, they certainly operate and feel great and I can understand why they are a standard. Shouldn't Guild consider using these or an "Imperial" on their flagship pieces. Gotoh-Waverlys? Bleech!

 

[Walter Broes]

Grover Rotomatics is what you mean.

I love Klusons too, but I like the butterbean tuners just as much - a lot of people are put off by open gears and think they look cheap, but they're actually pretty good tuners.

The "best" ones are currently done by Waverly, but the Gotoh's are great too.

What's confusing about the butterbean tuners is they're really a copy of vintage Grover Statites - Stew mac got a hold of the Waverly name and started marketing their high-quality Statite copies as Waverly tuners - but actually the standard vintage Waverly tuners were open-back exposed gear tuners with round buttons.
The vintage Waverly tuners were used by Guild too for a little while on electrics ànd acoustics, and are the typical 50's and 60's Gretsch tuner - and not nearly as nice as vintage Grover Statites.

I actually like the idea of FMIC putting butterbean tuners on Guilds, as Guild used them way back when too - but then Guild seems to have used pretty much anything and everything at times.

It's all in what you're used to - all my guitars have "vintage type" tuners of the Kluson, Grover Statite, or Kolb variety, and Grover Rotomatics or Schallers feel funny to me.

 

[john_kidder]

I used to notice some difference between tuners, enough to sort of squawk about every now and then, until I got my DV73 with the Grover Imperials. A real, noticeable difference in the feel, the accuracy, and the ease of use. Not just the big paddles for my oversize hands, but there is real feel of precision about them - it's like the differences between a really good micrometer and a sloppy set of calipers.

Other than that, I'm an old-fashioned Sta-Tite guy when I can be.

 

[cjd-player]

For what it's worth, Taylor, Larrivee, a several custom luthiers are touting the Gotoh 510 Delta Series as the best tuners currently on the market. 21 to 1 ratio.

Personally, I have Grover Rotomatics on all of my acoustics, and have never had any issue. The guitars stay in tune with no problems. Even after days in the case without playing.

 

[solenoid lopez]

Grover Roto's are fine tuners better still in recent years since they went 18:1. I've got/had them on many guitars, however the Gotoh 510's I now have on my DV6 blow the Grovers out of the window, they are sooooo smooth.

 

[jazzmang]

I used to notice some difference between tuners, enough to sort of squawk about every now and then, until I got my DV73 with the Grover Imperials. A real, noticeable difference in the feel, the accuracy, and the ease of use. Not just the big paddles for my oversize hands, but there is real feel of precision about them - it's like the differences between a really good micrometer and a sloppy set of calipers.

Other than that, I'm an old-fashioned Sta-Tite guy when I can be.

I thought the DV72 and DV73s had Grover Super Rotomatics and not the Imperials. They both have the same art deco paddles, but the packaging of the tuning machines is different, among other things.

Am I just crazy?

 

[john_kidder]

I thought the DV72 and DV73s had Grover Super Rotomatics and not the Imperials. They both have the same art deco paddles,

You're probably absolutely right - I just assumed from the big paddles they were Imperials - silly me. Still, they do feel better than many others - since they're still a 14:1 ratio, I presume it must just be the bigger handles. Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[john_kidder]

Well, than again, here's the WesterlyGuild description of West's guitar:

• Based upon the successful DV52, the DV73 features a AAAA feathered spruce top, G Shield logo, inlay's of red coral, turquoise, and black onyx, Grover Imperial tuners and Herrigbone binding. Only 50 DV73's built

I can't tell right now, my DV73's in Ashcroft.

 

[jazzmang]

Hmmm. I can verify my DV72 that I've got here looks to be Grover Super Rotomatics.

Maybe the DV73s have true Imperials???

Just guessing at this point.

 

[john_kidder]

On the other hand, here's fng45's DV73 on Webshots - conclusive - no Imperials there:

 

[chazmo]

I certainly have my share of Rotomatics at casa Chaz. Though ratios have changed over the years, I like the fact that I was able to install new replacement Rotos on my 1971 F-50R without drilling any holes, etc. They really are a nice standard.

I guess I'm really not that picky though, either. I've enjoyed some Schallers and Gotohs that I've tried over the years. My Taylor from 2004 had Waverly, geared tuners (three on a plate) that were lovely for the slothead. I probably wouldn't mind the open-back Gotohs that they're using on the New Hartford Guilds.

 

[adorshki]

Open tuners just make me nervous about potential accidental damage to the gears or even just keeping 'em clean.

 

[solenoid lopez]

These are what I have, straight drop in replacement of Grover Rotomatics.

 

[marcellis]

I like:

1. Closed Grovers (Rotomatics?) on my 2 F-65ce's
2. Closed Schallers (Put them on my arch top)

I don't like:

1. Grover Sta-Tites
2. Kluson style tuners
3. Planet Waves. (I like the cutter. But they don't hold as well as the ones I like).
I put PW tuners on one of my VN guitars. They don't hold their tune as well as the
Grovers or Schallers.

 

[Bill Ashton]

Well, I will certainly stand corrected regarding the Gotoh tuners on the new Guilds, perhaps they are the current top-of-the-line. Still personally do not like the little buttons though. Don't really mind the concept of the open tuner, in any event it would be easier to lube properly when the time comes.

Messer. Lopez, them are some aerodynamic tuners you show there! What are they, Porsche-designed? :lol: Perhaps just a little to futuristic for a traditional Guild I am thinking.

I didn't even know that they used Grover Imperials or similar, I had just thought it would be a proper look and high end tuner for the high end of the line.

Because the the "stringz experiment" I have mentioned in other threads, I am well acquinted with the Grover "Waverly-like" tuners being used on the GAD's. They certainly hold tune, are nice and firm, but those little buttons don't make it with my cement-fingers...I can see Guild using them to have some "value-added," and it didn't hurt the sale to me when I saw the Grover name, but I clearly did not know what I was getting into...

Maybe will change them out for a nice set of Klusons somewhere in the future...

 

[Brad Little]

For years, I put Grover Rotos on almost all my guitars, except for my 12 because they were too large and heavy and there weren't many problems with the Kluson six-in-line it came with. I did eventually change them for Schaller minis, but don't like the weight. When I got my Epiphone, it came with Waverly open backs, or maybe a clone, and I really like them. If the new Guilds are using Waverly or Gotoh open backs, I have no problem. My F-50 has Grovers that someone before me put on, I have no idea why they replaced the Schallers it probably came with. But they've been rock solid all the years I've had it, so I wouldn't object to Grovers either. I guess I'm just waffling.
In fact, I have two sets of Waverly chrome open backs that I'm thinking about putting on my 12, but they need to be trimmed to fit, and I'm not sure I want to cut them at all.

Brad

 

[chazmo]

Brad, you probably know... but F-50s have used gold-plated Grover Rotos in most of their history. So, substituting those in for the '70s-era Schallers is, while technically incorrect, certainly a valid thing within the scope of the product.