F512: Any production/specs changes made from the Tacoma to the New Hartford era?

[onlyrockrocks]

Hi everybody,

I own a Tacoma made F-512. And since I just found out that Guild has been sold and is moving to California again, I somehow started to think about the different facilities and eras of Guild and about my own F-512. I will have to check which year it has been made, but I guess it's a 2005/2006/2007 Tacoma. So, do you guys know if anything productionwise and specswise changed on the the F-512s during the Tacoma and New Hartford era? I know that a lot of you loved the New Hartford facility and its guitars...

Thanks guys and all the best!

 

[Brad Little]

I don't know when the change occurred, but NH 512s have a single truss rod with two carbon rods reinforcing the neck. The only thing I know is that the change was post Westerly.
Brad

 

[Bill Ashton]

The neck profile on the NH builds is significantly slimmer than the Tacomas, though I think this comes at the expense of very slightly reduced string spacing at the bridge...at least on my July 2013 model.

 

[chazmo]

Actually, Brad, the single truss rod was implemented in the Tacoma period, sometime in 2007(ish). I don't know if they built the neck with flanking carbon rods, but they did go to one adjustable out there.

I think it was New Hartford that started using a dual-action rod, but I'm not certain about that.

Significant changes to the 412/512 introduced specifically in New Hartford were (from memory):

1. New open-back Gotoh custom tuning machines with slotted pins.
2. Real ebony faceplate
3. Walnut center to neck laminate (used to be maple, I think).
4. dual-action rod
5. new rosette (MOP) similar to the old JF-55/65 series.

I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff.

 

[onlyrockrocks]

Hey guys, thanks a lot for your participation and keep on going, but I would like to add one question: Do you prefer one era and especially F512 model over the other (Tacoma vs. New Hartford)? I know that there are always good and bad instruments, but maybe there is a preference due to some reason...? Thanks a lot once again!

 

[Bill Ashton]

I think Chaz's Tacoma plays much better for fingerstyle (right hand) than my NH, but they sound virtually the same...thats, wonderful!

 

[adorshki]

Actually, Brad, the single truss rod was implemented in the Tacoma period, sometime in 2007(ish). I don't know if they built the neck with flanking carbon rods, but they did go to one adjustable out there.

Sticking my neck out 'cause I've had some "epic fails" in memory myself recently, but pretty sure that change WAS to the "single truss with flanking carbon fiber". It sticks out in my mind because I think it was covered in that same thread where we noticed Fender had never updated their spec sheet to show the change...remember that? I think you were in that one.. also I know for sure Tacoma was spec'ing "dual action truss rod" in a D40 sheet posted here, and I think that's the same truss that carried to NH.
"IIRC" "dual action" means it adjusts positively either way, to loosen or tighten, as somebody corrected me on thinking it meant the dual carbon fiber rods..and I believe those are ONLY used in 12-ers.
Hope that helps!

 

[SFIV1967]

I will have to check which year it has been made, but I guess it's a 2005/2006/2007 Tacoma.

Very easy to check, the serial number will tell you what you need to know.
As an example, we’ll use a random number: TJ 037 016.
• The first letter “T”, identifies the guitar as being made at the manufacturing facility in Tacoma, Washington.
• The second letter identifies the year of manufacture and is based on a dating system introduced by the Tacoma guitar manufacturing plant in 1998 that associated the letter “B” with that specific year. Successive years are associated with the alphabet in sequence. Using this system, the letter “J” would stand for the year 2006.
• The first three numbers of the serial number are derived from the “Julian” calendar which associates each day of the year to a respective number from 1 to 365 in numerical sequence. These three numbers identify the month and day of manufacture by their respective numerical order. In this case, the numbers 037 identify the instrument as being made on the 37th day of the year, which according to the Julian calendar, is February the 6th.
• The final three digits of the serial number refer to the unit number built on that specific day. In this example, 016 identifies this serial number as being from the 16th instrument built on that day.
• To recap this example: T (Built in Tacoma), J (Built in 2006), 037 (Built on February 6th), 016 (The 16th instrument built on that day)
The same dating system described above also applies to Guild instruments made in the New Hartford, CT factory. However, the first letter signifying the location of the manufacturing facility has been changed to “N” to signify “New Hartford”.
Ralf

 

[Bill Ashton]

Well I know that late production Tacoma D55's had a different truss rod than NH builds, as that is part of the reason mine was replaced...they no longer had the tooling to replicate that truss rod.

Now 412/512's certainly may be a different bird. Frank U. told us about the single rod at LMG I...where, lest we forget, that lucky devil Brad won his 512!

 

[idealassets]

Hey guys, thanks a lot for your participation and keep on going, but I would like to add one question: Do you prefer one era and especially F512 model over the other (Tacoma vs. New Hartford)? I know that there are always good and bad instruments, but maybe there is a preference due to some reason...? Thanks a lot once again!

Welcome to LTG. Can you do us a favor and remove your truss rod cover on the headstock, then tell us how many truss rods do you see inside?

Thank you,
Craig

 

[chazmo]

Hey guys, thanks a lot for your participation and keep on going, but I would like to add one question: Do you prefer one era and especially F512 model over the other (Tacoma vs. New Hartford)? I know that there are always good and bad instruments, but maybe there is a preference due to some reason...? Thanks a lot once again!

I love my Tacoma-built F-512, but there are a lot of things about the NH version that I'd really like to have. Chief among them is the real ebony faceplate. Next would be the weight-saving measures, particularly the tuners... I like the gold Grovers, but the open-back Gotohs are much lighter. I'm neutral on the rosette.

I didn't realize the neck profile had changed much, but I don't notice those things so much. If Bill says it's so, though, I'm sure he's right! I'm looking forward to A/B'ing these things with Bill when I get home to MA in the fall.

onlyrockrocks... I can only say that, well, you can't go wrong either way.

 

[chazmo]

Sticking my neck out 'cause I've had some "epic fails" in memory myself recently, but pretty sure that change WAS to the "single truss with flanking carbon fiber". It sticks out in my mind because I think it was covered in that same thread where we noticed Fender had never updated their spec sheet to show the change...remember that? I think you were in that one.. also I know for sure Tacoma was spec'ing "dual action truss rod" in a D40 sheet posted here, and I think that's the same truss that carried to NH.
"IIRC" "dual action" means it adjusts positively either way, to loosen or tighten, as somebody corrected me on thinking it meant the dual carbon fiber rods..and I believe those are ONLY used in 12-ers.
Hope that helps!

I think so too, Al. Indeed it's possible they were using a dual-action rod as well in Tacoma, but I am certain something DID change in that area in New Hartford because I remember discussing it with one of the guys... I can't tell you exactly what it was, and it's possible it wasn't for the 12-stringers that the change was made.

 

[Zelja]

Apart from some things mentioned another thing I heard in a video from the NH production manager (Gonzalez?) at the time was that the top radius was changed for more projection - went from 30' to 40' or vice versa. Also the guitars as I understand it were probably built a little lighter -I think maybe the use of adirondack red spruce for bracing came in in NH?

 

[chazmo]

Yeah, they used red spruce for braces on everything in NH. They had a CNC machine that could knock out tons of the stuff.

I don't know if that was a change from Tacoma, but it probably was, Zelja. Good catch!

 

[The Guilds of Grot]

From what I remember Frank Untermyer telling us at LMG I, when they started at NH they started with a clean sheet of paper! (Well at least a brand new CAD screen). The D-55 was totally designed on a CAD system and then everything else took off from there. The only the retained from design or manufacturing from Westerly or Tacoma was that they still looked like Guilds.

 

[jcwu]

The only the retained from design or manufacturing from Westerly or Tacoma was that they still looked like Guilds.

I hope this isn't beating a dead horse or anything, since I haven't been part of discussions of the transition, but... if this is the case, what makes a Guild a Guild?

 

[Bill Ashton]

Its the sound, man, its the sound!

:love-struck::love-struck:

She ain't no Taylor, and she ain't no Martin! Not a Gibson either...

 

[chazmo]

Amen, Bill.

Whatever Frank meant by that comment, I can assure you that NH Guilds definitely have "the sound" which is true to their history. I will also note that what he said is clearly an exaggeration. I know he would have like to change the finishing process for the Traditional line, but he felt compelled not to. They were all sprayed (multiple times) in the paint booth with NCL. I think what Frank meant was that all processes that they used were subject to question/improvement. NH had one of the most talented tooling folks, and they were capable of pretty much anything. I also know that one of the reasons Tacoma was abandoned was that they were not able to keep up wtih the change requests that were coming in from corporate. NH proved that they could. To some degree, I suppose this would account for the clean slate comment.

 

[idealassets]

I hope this isn't beating a dead horse or anything, since I haven't been part of discussions of the transition, but... if this is the case, what makes a Guild a Guild?

Actually a good question, since the Orpheum guitars with slope shoulders look like a Gibson, with the Guild logo looking so much like it is about to spell out "Gibson" as on the older Gibson guitars.

On the other hand it is a credit to Guild that a few other companies such as Martin, Blueridge, and even Taylor have attempted to clone the Guild jumbo 12 string guitars.

Not to ruin the party, I have even sound demo'd a few new Guild guitars in store demo racks that noticeably did not sound up to par in comparison to others of the same model that I have played. So I suppose that its not much different than the complaints that I have heard about Gibson.

 

[idealassets]

I hope this isn't beating a dead horse or anything, since I haven't been part of discussions of the transition, but... if this is the case, what makes a Guild a Guild?

One other item is that Gibson appears to dominate the country music scene everywhere, Martin dominates the old rockers such as Neil Young, Steven Stills, Jerry Garcia, Joni Mitchell, John Prine, etc.

But it appears that the "alternative" folks such as The Head & The Heart, Queens of the Stone Age, Alice In Chains, etc for some reason have bought a Guild or 2 to play acoustic on. I'm hopeful for what the future might bring.