cracks

[beanboy]

Hi everybody,

A 1981 D-50 just popped up on craigslist. I checked it out, and while i'm not totally sure about the sound (I need to play it again in a better environment), it played good enough for me to continue thinking about it.

It's got a decent amount of wear for a 28 yr old guitar, none of which concerns me except for a long crack in the top. It seems to be relatively stable (it didn't budge when i pressed on it)but it runs from the pickguard to the edge by the strap peg. It hasn't been repaired, but the seller says his tech told him it wasn't a big deal. There also appears to be the beginning of a crack at the soundhole by where the neck joins.

He's asking $600, which would be a steal without the cracks. With the cracks? I have no idea. I'd be curious to know what you (experts) think about this deal? Would the cracks significantly affect the sound? Or the intonation (it did need a setup)?

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

thanks.

 

[jgmaute]

Hi everybody,
A 1981 D-50 just popped up on craigslist. I checked it out, and while i'm not totally sure about the sound (I need to play it again in a better environment), it played good enough for me to continue thinking about it.
It's got a decent amount of wear for a 28 yr old guitar, none of which concerns me except for a long crack in the top. It seems to be relatively stable (it didn't budge when i pressed on it)but it runs from the pickguard to the edge by the strap peg. It hasn't been repaired, but the seller says his tech told him it wasn't a big deal. There also appears to be the beginning of a crack at the soundhole by where the neck joins.
He's asking $600, which would be a steal without the cracks. With the cracks? I have no idea. I'd be curious to know what you (experts) think about this deal? Would the cracks significantly affect the sound? Or the intonation (it did need a setup)?
Thanks for any advice you can offer.
thanks.

I don't know what 81 D50s are going for but I do know about cracks. All my guitars except the M-20 (interesting, that's the only one I didn't buy new, just got it...guess I should have stored mine under a bed instead of playing them...not) have cracks that have been repaired. Some of the cracks are from the 60s and 70s when I was performing all the time. None of them have opened. If you've got a good luthier who can do the work for you I wouldn't worry at all about the cracks. However, the fact that they are present should impact the price of the guitar. just my 2c...I'm sure others will be along with more knowledge and experience than I have...good luck finding the right Guild. jm

 

[killdeer43]

You want cracks.....cracks 'r' us!
But you know, I have a few myself and it's supposedly all about character building. And some say that I'm quite a character. :lol:

Cracks happen,
Joe

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

The cracks should have little to no effect on the tone of the guitar.
If the neck doesn't need to be re-set, that's a very good price.
Call a tech and see what it will cost for repairs on the cracks and then decide it the guitar is worth it.

 

[jgmaute]

You want cracks.....
Cracks 'r' us! But you know, I have a few myself and it's supposedly all about character building. Some say that I'm quite a character.

here's Killdeer43's picture

 

[killdeer43]

Thanks, Joan. Where did that come from? :?

Joe

 

[GardMan]

Hey Beanboy,
A simple top crack shouldn't be a big deal sonically or structurally... and not too expensive to repair. My D-44 had a 3" top crack and split endblock when it came to me. Can't remember, but I think it was <$100 to fix both... two cleats and glue the top crack, and glue and a thin reinforcing plate on the tailblock. Just so you're not surprised if it happens to you... I did seem to note a change in tone right after the repair (sounded a bit "thin" and "tight" right afterwards).. that then "opened back up" to its pre-repair sound after a week of playing.

I would look a little more at the crack from the soundhole to the fingerboard. That one is potentially more troublesome. If the edge of the soundhole has shifted at all, it could indicate that the neck block has loosened or shifted (perhaps from exposure to high temps). Frank Ford shows some examples here and here. If it has shifted, it may require more substantial work to bring things back in line and get them secure again... and I'd probably pass.
If it hasn't shifted, some reinforcement and glue would probably stabilize it.

As for value... On eBay, D-50s sell anywhere from $800-$1500 (I found my '76 in Exc+ condition for just a smidge over $1K, and consider it a "steal"). I start with a reasonable eBay price like $1200, subtract the cost of repair (talk to a luthier/repair tech for that), and subtract some subjective depreciation for the cracks. Without pics, it's hard to say... but $500-$600 + repair costs doesn't seem all that bad for a D-50 "player." On the other hand... D-50s from the '70s and '80s show up pretty regularly on the 'Bay... Just my $0.02.
Dave

 

[Nigel Wickwire]

Oy Beano! There is a fair to middlin' chance that the cracks in that D-50 are humidity related or lack of humidity. If you do buy that thing get a hygrometer straightaway to take a measurement and humidify accordingly. Those cracks make become almost undetectable with proper humidification. YMMV and best of luck.

~nw

 

[jgmaute]

Thanks, Joan. Where did that come from? :?
Joe

Glad to help Joe. I just had to edit the link you put up and it hopped into my post. Joan

 

[killdeer43]

Thanks, Joan. Where did that come from? :?
Joe

Glad to help Joe. I just had to edit the link you put up and it hopped into my post. Joan

Joan,

I tried to enter it but it just sort of disappeared, and then I saw it below my post. Thought I had gone over to the other side. Go figure this technology we have at our fingertips. :lol:

What a family we have here!

Thanks,
Joe

 

[kostask]

The cracks you are talking about are most likely humidity related. Depending on how wide the cracks get, most of the time they can be glued alone, or glued and a wooden cleat can be added under the soundboard. If they are really wide, a splinter can be inserted into the crack (grain matched) and then the crack can be glued and cleated, along with some lacquer work. Even this will be pretty much impossible to see unless you know it was there in the first place, if done by a good luthier.

The repair guy you take your guitar to may humidify your guitar for a week or two, to allow the wood to expand slightly, and then glue/cleat it, humidifying it makes this easeir. You may want to get him to take a look at the pickguard, and see if it has shrunk any. Sometimes, pickguards shrink, and if they are glued to the bare wood, or have an exceptionally good grip on the soundboard, they shrink and crack the wood as well. Your luthier will be able to identify if there are cracks under the pickguard as well as the areas you mentioned. Pay serious attention to what Gardman said about the neckblock shifting. Even that doesn't mean the guitar is trashed, just that it can cost quite a bit more to get right again.

Up here, humidity is a problem year round, but gets worse in the winter. Proper humidification is a must, and will be in areas that are heated over the winter, as well as in areas that have low humidity year round.

 

[Paddlefoot]

Just curious Kostas and Gardman. Have you seen guitars that have been exposed to high heat then repaired continue to have additional problems after the first one showed up? If Hideglue is checking in I'd love to hear his input too. I was thinking that Beanboy shouldn't fall too deeply in love with this guitar right away.

 

[kostask]

Guitars that have been overheated can have a wide variety of problems, some of which don't show up until later due to glue failures that may not show up immediately. This can show up as loose braces, or even as neck problems, like neck warpage,to the problems that Gardman was talking about if the upper transverse brace (the one that runs side to side in the upper bout, under the fretboard extension; that's what the luthiers around here call it). Those generally show up a pretty quick, as the string tension forces the issue in short order. It really depends on how much heat, and for how long.

From the description, if the playability is good (also check the fret ends, if they are sticking out, it is another indication of a guitar in need of humidification), the neck angle should be OK, and I am inclined to think the guitar had cracked due to lack of humidity, or possibly the result of pick guard shrinkage. This is all coming from a written description, so the best thing Beanboy can do is to take it to a good luthier, and have him check it over. Perhaps make it a condition of the sale. If the seller doesn`t agree, walk away.

Kostas

 

[GardMan]

Paddlefoot... no personal experience here. Just info gleaned from discussions here, Frank Ford's Frets.com site, and other websites I have come across. I have bought all but one (my '27 D-35) of my Guilds used, and all but two (D-35 and my '76 D-50) sight unseen off the net, so have tried to educate myself about what problems to look for so I wouldn't get burned. D

 

[Paddlefoot]

Thanks guys. I do most of my buying on the internet too and have steered away from some because I suspected they were too hot at one time or another. Just curious Kostas, Have you noticed any particular years of Guilds with binding shrinkage or cracking problems? If you have, do you think it's more of a material problem or possibly an early warning that the guitar was pretty hot at one time?

 

[kostask]

I would hazard a guess that most binding that actually shrinks is due to the properties of the materials. I don't think that most of the "modern" (ie. non-celluloid) material shrinks much with heat; it'll probably discolor or melt first. If it is detached or come loose from the guitar body, that would be an indication of glue failure, possibly heat related, and it will pull away from areas under tension/compression (tight bends). In that type of high heat exposure, I'd expect that the neck angle would show some changes as well. My luthier buddies don't have a lot of Guilds coming in, they see mostly Martins, Gibsons, some Taylors, and the Canadian brands (Godin brands, like Norman, Simon and Patrick, Seagull), and of course Fender and Gibson electric guitars and basses, so I can't really point to any particular years in which Guilds had binding issues. Maybe Hans, Gardman or the other posters who have seen more Guilds can say if there is any time period trend to binding problems.

Celluloid is a really unstable material, and can decompose chemically just by sitting around, no excessive heat required. It may be more humidity than heat related, and probably has more to do with the material processing than anything else, but when it does start decomposing, it does some nasty things to metal parts and to finishes.

I have an F50R that had cracked binding on the end of the fingerboard, and the crack looked like it was due to shrinkage, but the guitar showed no sign of heat damage otherwise; my luthier buddy concluded it was a case of shrinkage. I have another guitar, non-Guild dreadnought, where the binding has come loose in the waist, and when my luthier buddy looked at it, the binding wasn't shrunken, and the guitar wasn't overheated by any other evidence, just that the binding channel was almost devoid of glue. He just glued it back with some Titebond, and its been fine ever since.

Sorry I can't help more.

Kostas