Bridgepins, saddles, and the quest for perfect tone

[singermcl]

Ok, so how much of a difference do you think a different saddle makes- particularly, a bone saddle versus whatever Westerley was making at a given point in time? Have many (any?) of you swapped in a custom saddle and noticed a big difference?

Second, I just bought an F-212 XL from what is essentially a pawn shop over the Internet. It has a compensated saddle that looks like plastic. Do any of you that have 212 XL's know if they came that way from Westerly? Mine is one of the late 90's ones, when Guild started offereing the 212 XL again. Looks like a 99 from the serial #.

Finally- tapping into the great font of experience here- who is your favorite custom bridge pin source? There are several on the web and I want to replace my plastic ones with bone ones. Is there an outfit you would use? Do any of you think it makes a difference in tone on a Guild.

And, my GOSH, do the Guild 12's sound amazing. They should be the standard against which all 12's are judged. Wow. Such definition, clarity, warmth, low end and volume.

 

[killdeer43]

And, my GOSH, do the Guild 12's sound amazing. They should be the standard against which all 12's are judged. Wow. Such definition, clarity, warmth, low end and volume.

I believe they already are the 'standard' of which you speak.
*Others will be around soon to answer your "quest for the perfect tone" questions. :wink:

Stay in tune,
Joe

 

[dapmdave]

I'm waiting for some responses, too. I have a new (to me) '66 F-212. It's hard to imagine making it sound better...

Dave 8)

 

[FNG]

www.guitarsaddles.com

Call Bob to get his advice on the best saddle for a 12er...I think the saddle and nut are probably the cheapest sound improvement you can make...

 

[Dr. Spivey]

For pins and saddles, Bob Colosi is the man: http://www.guitarsaddles.com/default.asp

O.K., I see Effin beat me to it.

 

[bluesypicky]

Pardon the short interruption of the thread subject here (and welcome to the wonderful world of Guild 12ers singer) but Doc, where is your thread on the newly arrived Bluesbird so we can share your excitment?????
I see it even made you change the avatar...... :lol:

 

[FNG]

For pins and saddles, Bob Colosi is the man: http://www.guitarsaddles.com/default.asp

O.K., I see Effin beat me to it.

Great minds think alike. 8)

 

[Dr. Spivey]

Pardon the short interruption of the thread subject here (and welcome to the wonderful world of Guild 12ers singer) but Doc, where is your thread on the newly arrived Bluesbird so we can share your excitment?????
I see it even made you change the avatar...... :lol:

New guitar, new avatar. I let it warm for 24 hrs, so I just opened it this afternoon. I've just stopped playing to eat.

I'll take some photos and put up a thread tomorrow. I LOVE THE BLUESBIRD!

 

[dreadnut]

http://www.google.com/product_url?q=htt ... n&sa=title

These are what I have on my DV-52!

 

[cjd-player]

Ok, so how much of a difference do you think a different saddle makes- particularly, a bone saddle versus whatever Westerley was making at a given point in time? Have many (any?) of you swapped in a custom saddle and noticed a big difference?

In my experience, different saddle materials can make very noticeable differences. People often assume that a bone saddle is the best way to go, but I don't think that is necessarily the case. I have saddles made from Tusq, bone, and ivory. I have tried the different materials on my different guitars and there are very audible differences. The cedar on walnut guitar that I used to have sounded best with the Tusq saddle. Bone was just o.k., but ivory was horrible on that one. Only the Tusq really worked. My D-55 sounds best with bone. My 814ce (spruce on Mad rosewood) and 812ce (redwood on EI rosewood) sound best with the ivory.

So I think it boils down to the individual guitar. I would suggest trying different saddle materials. You might be surprised by what you hear.

 

[bluesypicky]

These are what I have on my DV-52!

Dread, did you replace the stock ones with those? If so were you able to hear a difference in the tone?

 

[GardMan]

I've swapped saddles on most of my dreads... some of the ones I took out were definitely plastic. Others, I am not so sure. Apparently, you can test them with a hot needle... if it melts into the bridge, the bridge is plastic. But, I have never tried...

Swapping saddles definitely affected tone... I tried Tusq on a couple, but decided I liked the sound of bone better. Tusq seemed a bit brasher to me.

A nut would probably only affect the tone of unfretted strings.

I've got bone pins in four, and black horn pins in three of my dreads. Although I do think that the pins can affect tone to a degree (but not as much as the saddle), I also prefer the look. Moreover, I think bone or other natural material pins will be more durable than plastic ones (the plastic tends to deform over the years).

 

[Scottdog]

Just recently fit a bone Martin saddle to my D-16 from Maury's Music,
Installed some bone bridge pins from Stew Mac in my D-25 and
some bone bridge pins from Custom Inlay in my D-4.
I'm happy with each and every purchase.

Noticed a difference in regards to sustain and brightness but.....

The D-16 had a saddle put in it that was too thin and had a spacer under it
causing it to lean over quite a bit and the bottom of the saddle was actually
curved so it didn't make full contact with the top. [somebody's hack job]
Noticed a big improvement on sustain, brightness and intonation.

The D-25 had the original 35 year old pins that were all crushed, bent
and barely stayed in the bridge. Noticed a huge improvement on sustain.

The D-4 had a loud bassy sound and it didn't have all the same bridge pins in it,
so I wanted to see if it would improve the high end with the harder pins.
I plan to back it up with a bone nut and saddle as well.

 

[bunuel]

For bridge pins, I subscribe to the recs. of Larry Cragg, N. Young's guitar tech: Ebony pins for the bass strings & buffalo horn for the treble. While they both probably know something about acoustic tone, I actually did the initial experiment, because I thought Cragg's advice on the pins was overly finicky & couldn't make a difference (I've got a curious & scientific bent).

Trying it completely changed my mind.

Now, all of my Guilds & other acoustics are set up that way--ebony for the bass, horn for the treble. I've found the difference between this setup & the standard plastic pins is not so much for volume & sustain, as it is for clarity & general note to note & string to string definition. Been a noticeable improvement on every guitar I own.

I usu. just go with StewMac sets in the proper dimension. Cheaper to buy a 6string set of each pin type & that way you can do 2 6strings, or a 12 string...& they seem to make an even bigger difference on 12 strings.

Final contextual note: bridge pins won't make a mediocre guitar sound great. They don't make as much difference as a good setup, proper intonation, & finding the right strings to complement your guitar, playing style, & setup. But when all the rest of that's taken care of, I've found that they kick it up a notch. Your experience may be different.

 

[dreadnut]

BP, yes, and yes. The tone got just a little sweeter

DV-52

D-25M

 

[iJamF47M]

This is a much debated topic and somewhat controversial. To be honest, when I read about people who can hear no difference in different pins and saddles, I have to question their hearing. To me, there is a very distinct change with various pins. I don't believe there is one material that is always better than the other. To me it is a matching game where you need to find the best combination of pins, bridge, and strings. They are links in the chain that contribute to the overall sound.

With my Adi/maple F-47M, I've found that the combo I prefer is actually not with the factory supplied bone pins, but ebony. My tone woods slant towards the brighter side, so I've found through experimentation that the ebony pins smooth the edges of the sound just enough and eliminate the slightly "crashy" presentation of the bone pins. If I had a characteristically darker Adi/Rosewood combo, bone might be the right choice to liven the edges up a bit. It all just depends on the individual tone of the guitar and sound you're after.

iJam

 

[killdeer43]

As an addendum to the topic of "bridgepins, saddles, and the quest for perfect tone," for me it's always been about....the lyrics! :wink:

Joe

 

[jcwu]

To be honest, when I read about people who can hear no difference in different pins and saddles, I have to question their hearing.

I agree... especially because I might be one of those people who can hear no difference.

Hearing is very subjective - plus I've had some hearing damage due to listening to really loud music on headphones when I was young, or turning the amps up too loud. So maybe my ears just won't be sensitive enough to pick up the difference in frequency response, negating (for me) the benefits of different material pins and saddles.

Although.... I did change my DV52 saddle from the micarta LB6 to bone, and I *do* hear a difference! *hooray*

 

[killdeer43]

To be honest, when I read about people who can hear no difference in different pins and saddles, I have to question their hearing.

Hearing is very subjective - plus I've had some hearing damage

Hearing is indeed subjective, and everyone brings their own level of 'ability' to the table. So many variables!
I took a serious header a few years ago (unintentional) and on the list of more than 20 injuries related to that one incident, I lost most of my high-end hearing.
It's most apparent when I take a field trip out to look for birds and I just don't hear those little high-pitched songs/calls. I can, however, nail them on the visual. :wink:
Whatever I might have lost hasn't affected my quality of life.

It also hasn't affected my love for and appreciation of music or the sound of a good, well -tuned Guild guitar. It is what it is.

Guilded and GASsed, and I hear you!
Joe

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

My wife playes a Taylor pinless bridge 410.
It came with a plastic saddle.
A few months ago, I made a bone saddle for it and set it up with some Elixor Nano Web lights.

The difference was night and day.
I always liked the guitar but with this new set up, it became a prize!
Wow, what an improvement.
This guitar sounds awesome now.

I'm a a big believer in bone saddles.
I have them in all of my guitars.
Pins to me, are just cosmetic.