Bone or Ivory?

[Don]

I'm likely replacing the saddles and nuts on all my Guilds. Some need it and some want it. Bob Colosi has West African elephant ivory available for the project. What is the collective wisdom on the topic of ivory vs. bone? I already know ivory costs the earth ($80-$100 per guitar to upgrade). The question is does it really make that much difference in the sound? Put another way, if I had bone already would I notice the difference after installing ivory?

Cheers!

Don

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

I had my luthier put an ivory saddle on one of my guitars.
I didn't hear enough, if any difference from "GOOD" bone.
By good, I mean bone that doesn't chip after it's been installed.
I have had this happen before.

I didn't even have to pay extra for the ivory because the luthier said that nobody wanted to use it any more and it was just sitting in his shop.

There was a very interesting topic about the use of ivory on the AGF forum last year.
I was surprised at how many guitar owners frowned on the use of legal ivory for saddles.
I think that some of us get too politically correct at times.

 

[cjd-player]

There has been a plethora of threads about saddle materials over on AGF. The collective wisdom is that the "best" saddle material is very guitar dependent.

Bone, elephant ivory, WA Elephant Ivory, Fossilized Walrus Ivory, Tusq, Micarta, Corian, etc. can all result in subtle or not-so-subtle tone differences depending upon the guitar; shape, top wood, and body woods. There are some AGF members who assumed that changing from the manufacturer-supplied Tusq or Micarta to bone or some other "natural" material would be a no-brainer upgrade, only to find out that the guitar actually sounded better with the original saddle material.

I would not assume that changing all of your guitars over to WA Elephant Ivory will be an improvement for each one.

First, I would make sure that all of the existing saddles are flat on the bottom and fit properly in the saddle slot. Then you know you have a correct baseline for comparison. Also, aural memory is very poor for most folks. I think you really need to record identical sound clips to evaluate different saddle materials. We sometimes hear what we want to or think we should hear. Especially if we have spent a lot of money for the supposed upgrade.

If you have a specific tone adjustment in mind, such as an overall brighter sound, or better string-to-string balance on a specific guitar, then the info on Bob's website about different saddle materials is typically spot on. I've switched from Tusq to EI for a more mellow and balanced sound, and from Bone to FWI for a slightly brighter tone on two different guitars, and the results were great. I also had a guitar for which changing from Tusq to bone was not an improvement, so I stayed with the Tusq. I think a sweeping change for the sake of change is risky.


Remember also that changing the nut material only effects open strings. If a string is fretted, the nut material has essentially no effect.

 

[Ross]

Bob Colosi has West African elephant ivory available

I wouldn't recommend using anything made from endangered species.

 

[evenkeel]

Also, aural memory is very poor for most folks. I think you really need to record identical sound clips to evaluate different saddle materials. We sometimes hear what we want to or think we should hear. Especially if we have spent a lot of money for the supposed upgrade.

Very much agree with this and the rest of cjd's comments. I've replaced nuts and saddles, going from tusq to bone, plastic to tusq to bone. I've used micarta and corian. The differences, if any, are very, very subtle. I'm also willing to admit me wanting to hear a difference likely played a role.

If you are going to replace a plastic saddle and nut, I'd generally suggest going to bone rather than the intermediate step of a high tech synthetics, Tusq, Corian, Micarta etc.. The costs difference between the synthetics and bone is small so why not just go all the way. Ivory, bone, fossillized whatever, is likely more about the asthetic than the aural.

Finally. I used to have a Martin dread in my sig., now gone to a new home. While in my posession I tried Micarta, Tusq, and a two different bone saddles. Amped I liked Micarta, straight acoustic I liked bone. The bone sounded a bit shrill thru a PA.

 

[Don]

All of the ivory Bob uses is documented, legally imported and about 100 years old. So with respect to all the elephant lovers (Of which I am one) his business does not support the illicit ivory trade.

Right now my JF30-12 is in and it must have a new saddle and nut. Someone replaced the saddle at some point and botched the job. The saddle was too short for the slot in the bridge and was leaning towards the neck. The nut has some chips out of it. So it came down to what material would be used as I had to replace what was there. My luthier does work in bone but was willing to shape ivory if I had Bob send him the blanks. Sounds to me like I might just have him put in bone and be happy.

My D40SB and DV52NT both are getting a little shallow in the saddle department. I figured they were in line for a set up which would likely involve new saddles. Might as well have nuts to match so I thought. I figured to do the same for Miss Piggy (D212M) so she wouldn't feel left out.

 

[GardMan]

Documented or not, pre-ban or not, legal or not... any material covered by the CITEs convention/treaty will cause a headache and delay at the least, confiscation of the guitar at the worst, if it is transported across an international border and gets caught be customs.

I am not advocating any particular nut/saddle material or environmental position... just sayin'.
Dave

 

[Don]

That's awesome advice. My globetrotting days are done but those reading this thread who still do travel with instruments take notice.

 

[adorshki]

That's awesome advice. My globetrotting days are done but those reading this thread who still do travel with instruments take notice.

Yep. It was discussed recently but recycling a topic like that is definitely useful for guys who may not even be aware of it. If I remember right, the rules are so draconian that no matter how good your documentation about the instrument is, chances are it's going to be confiscated and have physical samples of the supect material taken for analysis.
Ready to have a nice little divot taken out of your fretboard? (rosewood) :shock:

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

Not trying to rock the boat but how could a customs employee tell ivory from bone.
I doubt that any of them could even tell Brazilian Rosewood from IRW.
Even good luthiers have a hard time telling the difference.

Ya I know that it wouldn't be worth taking a chance but if you take any Rosewood guitar through customs, you run the same risk.

I just don't see why people get concerned about the use of legal ivory.
To tell you the truth, if I requested an ivory saddle be installed in a guitar, I would have to take the tech or luthiers word for it that they did indeed use ivory and not something else, like bone.

There are too many real things in this world to worry about.
Just saying. :wink:

 

[Don]

Okay, I'll admit to ignorance. What is the problem with rosewood?

 

[killdeer43]

Remember also that changing the nut material only effects open strings. If a string is fretted, the nut material has essentially no effect.

There it is.
If you use lots of barre chords...... :wink:

Joe

 

[adorshki]

Okay, I'll admit to ignorance. What is the problem with rosewood?

Brazilian is on the list. Trying to prove it's not Brazilian or was legally imported and made into a guitar before the treaty went into effect would be painful at the very least. That's why even if you have an original purchase receipt for the instrument showing when it was "new", any customs agent can decide they don't believe you and seize it to test it. After, all it could be a replacement fretboard, for example.
Gibson had a bunch of Madagascar mahogany seized right out of the factory last year, if I remember my facts correctly. It's gettin' serious.

 

[Don]

All the more reason to stay the hell out of airports. I don't travel with instruments mainly to protect them. Now you tell me that people who can't (Or won't) profile for terrorists and/or drug dealers will destroy my guitar to find out what it's made of. How utterly typical.

When do the colonization ships leave again?

 

[adorshki]

All the more reason to stay the hell out of airports. I don't travel with instruments mainly to protect them. Now you tell me that people who can't (Or won't) profile for terrorists and/or drug dealers will destroy my guitar to find out what it's made of. How utterly typical.
When do the colonization ships leave again?

I wouldn't travel with an instrument for the same reason, unless I could carry it on. But I still try to see things from both sides, and I think what irks most of us is that we are being required to prove our innocence after being raised in culture where "innocent until proven guilty" has been the operating rule.
Don't worry about the coloniztion ships, teach your children how to read and think logically. Then they'll be able to survive anywhere. :wink:

 

[bluesypicky]

I'm with you TMG. Relax people.
I think the Gibson case that Al is talking about helped the paranoia build up amongst musicians, but there is a big difference between an agency going after a corporation with a stock pile of the banned material, and Joe Shmock traveling with his guitar. Without claiming that traveling with a braz roz guitar is 100% risk free, I do believe things are being blown out of proportion, and wouldn't (and won't) worry about a braz rosewood fingerboard or bridge on my guitar when I travel abroad.
But each his own in terms of risk assessment I guess. :wink:

 

[Don]

So, anyone care to comment on politically correct guitar repair materials?

 

[adorshki]

Not trying to rock the boat but how could a customs employee tell ivory from bone.
I doubt that any of them could even tell Brazilian Rosewood from IRW.
Even good luthiers have a hard time telling the difference.

Exactly. So in the time-honored tradition of CYA whaddaya think they'll do? They'll confiscate it to take samples for forensic analysis. Literally.
They might cut you slack, but the customs rules ALLOW them to do this and by some interpretations REQUIRE them to do this. IF that country signed the CITES treaty.
Some of the verbiage of the treaty itself was posted here, by Chazmo I think it was, but we had to cool the subject down as it started veering towards political issues. The usual stuff about the wisdom of the politicians responsible for the treaty. TMG I know you've been around and maybe you missed the first thread about the treaty, but I'm sure you know what I'm sayin' about dragging politics into the forum.
I'm just tossing out the reminder to help newbies understand the friendly tone we want to try to maintain when getting close to delicate issues.

There are too many real things in this world to worry about.
Just saying. :wink:

Yep. 8)

 

[bluesypicky]

Put another way, if I had bone already would I notice the difference after installing ivory?Cheers!Don

To answer that question, since it really IS what it boils down to isn't it?.... My answer would be no.
So my advice would be, save yourself the worries and expenses, and go bone. But that's just one opinion.

 

[adorshki]

So, anyone care to comment on politically correct guitar repair materials?

Well, back to nuts and saddles, the synthetics are pretty much guaranteed, until petroleum becomes an endangered resource...oh waitaminnit.... :lol:
And there's still plenty of "legal" varieties of rosewood and 'hog for luthier's needs, and ebony. A lot of the new exotic woods you see being introduced are being used simply BECAUSE the traditional materials ARE getting scarcer and more costly. Bone's OK but the last luthier I talked to mentioned GOOD bone is getting hard to find, that is, good consistent material without any voids in it.
Personally I got a bone nut and saddle in the D25 when it got its first refret back in about '99, it DEFINITELY helped with sustain and I DO play a lot of open strings either strumming or scaling.
But the other two still have the original factory parts, pretty sure that's micarta in Guild's case, and I got no complaints. I'll probably think about upgrading when they get re-fretted, since that'll require a complete setup anyway.