Best Bridge Glue ?

[nanccinut]

Was told to glue a bridge down correct for my Martin copy Granada I need to step up from carpenters glue. This person has given me some glue called Tight-Bond . Is this what I need. Also since the bridge holes were filled due to a change in placement to get the intonation dead on I need to drill new pin holes on through the soundboard for this 64 Martin copy rosewood bridge. Has a ivory saddle made from three lamianted piano keys which worked perfect for the 3/32nd slot size.To help maintain a great woody sound replacing the plastic nut with a piece of liteakia which is almost black in color and very hard to come by. Heard this wood is pulled from South American river beds but could be a mith!
Had bought set of black ebony pins and just wonder to seat them correct into the soundboard bridge plate what size of drill dia do I use? Still need to countersink the pins hole just a tab so also wonder to what outside dia should they be to be right?
thanks -nanccinut

 

[drive-south]

I would suggest you refer to Frank Ford's site Frets.com.

From what I've read, carpenter glue is not good for guitar construction or repair as it softens up at very low temp. Hot hide glue is the way to go. It is very strong, resistant to heat, but can be softened later on if future repairs are needed.

Good luck with your' repair.

drive-south

 

[drive-south]

I'll just add a warning. Frets.com is addictive and there are no 12-step programs. Once you visit the site, your' hooked.

drive-south

 

[Brad Little]

Many luthiers these days are using Titebond (or other aliphatic resin adhesives) in place of hot hide glue. Many still prefer hot hide glue. The luthier building a classical guitar for me has done testing on both and prefers Titebond, and even though my inclination was to use hot hide glue, I deferred to him. When I get home, I'll see if I still have the email he sent with his observations and excerpt it for the list.
From http://www.provide.net/~cfh/martin.html regarding Martin's use of glue:
"Glue
In the fall of 1964, it's generally accepted that hide glue was replaced with white polyvinyl acetate PVA glue (Elmer's) after the move to the new Martin build facility. (But hide glue was still used until the mid-seventies for gluing tops to the rim and in some other situations.) A notation was written in Grant Remaley's personal memos on Sept 29, 1964 indicating Martin was starting to use "cold" glue. It is generally thought the type of glue used does affect the sound of the guitar. Starting some time in the 1980s Martin started switching from white glue to yellow aliphatic resin (titebond)."
So, if you are trying to duplicate a '64 Martin, some bridges would have been glued with hide and some with Elmer's. If you want a more modern (and possibly stronger) bond, go with Titebond.
Brad

 

[cjd-player]

I posted some information on woodworking glues in this thread:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11372&p=120304&hilit=+white+PVA#p120304

I would definitely recommend the aliphatic resin glue (Titebond or Yellow Elmers) for the bridge.

 

[jwsamuel]

Many luthiers these days are using Titebond (or other aliphatic resin adhesives) in place of hot hide glue.

As do many manufacturers, such as Martin. However, you have to be sure to use the original Titebond, not Titebond II or Titebond III.

Jim

 

[kostask]

Preferred glue for guitars in general is hide glue, because when completely dry, it crystallizes into a solid state (i.e. no "creep"), and this is believed to allow for the best transmission of sound and string energy. Hide glue is problematic because it has a very fast setup time, so when it is used, the parts should be ready to be put together immediately. It also needs to be mixed together just shortly before use, and kept heated to about 140F. Even so, it can only considered to be useable for about 30 minutes or so after mixing, and then a new batch needs to be made. It also smells really, really bad. It has excellent bond strength. Some of the "high end" Martins have reverted to being made with hide glue.

Titebond is an aliphatic resin, so when dry, it doesn't really ever become solid (i.e. can creep slightly). But it is easy to use, has a longer setup time, can be used for months on end after the bottle is opened, and has very good bond strength. The factories have gone to Titebond for these reasons, and for the most part, it works well, if not quite as well as hide glue.

Both glues will release when heated or steamed, which is an important consideration when repairs have to be made. The other Titebonds (II and III) don't release easily or at all, and can end up tearing up wood if repairs are attempted on guitars using these glues.

"Carpenter's Glues" in general tend to creep (move even after they are dry, under pressure), and are considered unsuitable for use on guitars with the various pressures and tensions (mostly from the strings) being present. Most also don't have really good bond strenght.

Kostas

 

[Steelpickin']

 

[kostask]

Sorry, not bullshit. Furniture is rarely under 150+ lbs of constant pressure. Buidling guitars is a combination of woodworking skill, and tension management. Very little furniture sees the kind of tension experienced by guitars on a constant basis. Building furniture, and regular carpentry are not the same as building guitars, as similar as they may appear. A slight bit of creep with carpenter's glue on furniture is of little consequence, the same amount of creep in a guitar would make a guitar unplayable, destroy the sound or destroy the guitar.

While i fully respect your woodworking knowledge, there are reasons that Titebond is universally used in guitar building, and carpenter's glue isn't, and it doesn't have anything to do with preference. While none of the glues are as good as hide glue, Titebond is preferred because of its resistance to creep, and it is regarded as the best replacement for hide glue, without its many limitations.

Please also refer to the Stewart-MacDonald page on Franklin Titebond for a similar statement.

I would also appreciate a little bit more courtesy in the future. I have not been discourteous to you, so don't be discourteous to me.

Kostas

 

[cjd-player]

Kostas,
I think it might clear things up if you expain what you mean by "Carpenters Glue".
Liquid Nails???

Many year ago, Fine Woodworking magazine did an article on woodworking glues.
They've probably done more since, but I don't subscribe anymore.
Anyway, the bottom line was that Titebond and Elmer's Yellow are both aliphatic resin PVA's and are virtually identical.

Elmer's markets theirs as "Carpenter's Glue" 'cause they're marketing the average joe weekend warrier.
You can typically buy theirs in the supermarket.
Titebond is marketed more toward the pro woodworker and woodworking industry.
I know several professional woodworkers who use them interchangeably.

 

[kostask]

I mean Elmers, and any other "Non Professional" grade glue made for wood working. Creep is not sudden, and woodworkers, as stated above, do not normally build furniture to withstand a constant 150+ lbs force. Long term, the carpenters glue will creep, whereas Titebond has proven not to. This is why it has been used in guitar factories, by hand builders, and for glue repairs for over 30 years. If you are under the impression that carpenter's glue is adequate, do you think all the people wouldn't be using it, as it is cheaper, and more readily available. The glue joint for a guitar soundboard/top, is constantly being pulled up under tension from strings, a joint rarely seen, if at all in woodworking or in furniture making. Yet this joint must be able to last 20-50-100 years with constant tension of the strings on it. Even the slightest excess amount of creep is unacceptable, and over time, carpenter's glue will creep, not because it is a "bad" glue, just because it was not intended to be used for this type of joint. Titebond doesn't, and failures due to the Titebond are rare, if the guitar has not been exposed to exteme conditions (heat, water).

If the factories could get away with using Elmer's, or any other cheaper glue, that does a similar job, they would use it. But until now, for guitar building, they haven't, and so continue to use Titebond.

No disrespect intended to the woodworking magazine, but they were testing the glue for a woodworking application, and they were not testing for long term (20 years + ) creep resistance under tension. Their results are probably very valid, and I am sure valuable for the area and audience they were intended for, but they were not intended for guitar making.

Kostas

 

[cjd-player]

Found some of the Fine Woodworking Magazine references:

"Which Glue do You Use?"
Chemical types, not brands, make the difference.
By George Mustoe (A Chemist at Western Washington University)
"In recent years woodworkers have been attracted to another type of PVA adhesive, aliphatic resin, or yellow glue. Actually the label is a bit of a marketing ploy, since both yellow and white glues are technically aliphatics, which means that they consist of long chains of molecules. Yellow glues have qualities similar to those of white glues, but they contain polymers that speed tack time and improve moisture and creep resistance, at the expense of a slower cure. Yellow glues are less thermoplastic, so they won't gum up sandpaper as badly. Borden's Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue and Franklin's Titebond are two of the best selling brands and are identical."

"Building a Steel String Guitar"
An Overview of the fine points
by William "Grit" Laskin (a world-renowned luthier in Toronto)
speaking about gluing the back on: "For this and all other gluing on the guitar, use an aliphatic resin glue such as Titebond, or Elmer's Carpenter Glue."

If a chemist says that Franklin's Titebond and Borden's Elmer's Carpenter Glue are identical, I believe him.
Elmer's isn't cheaper in the sense that Titebond is simply overpriced to the general consumer.
Name Marketing.

 

[taabru45]

I'll just add a warning. Frets.com is addictive and there are no 12-step programs. Once you visit the site, your' hooked.

drive-south

They DO have a good 12 fret program though.... :lol: :lol: Steffan

 

[kostask]

i am gong to put on my lawyer's hat here, and split some hairs.

In one part of the statement, the chemist says:

"Yellow glues have qualities similar to those of white glues, but they contain polymers that speed tack time and improve moisture and creep resistance, at the expense of a slower cure"

and in the next he says:

"Borden's Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue and Franklin's Titebond are two of the best selling brands and are identical"

Which is it? Do the yellow glues have the "Certain Polymers" that make them different, or are they identical? The paragraph is self contradictory. In addition, the statement regarding the long cure time is true of Titebond. The luthier's I know all use 24 hours as a
cure time for Titebond. Could the presence or absence of these "certain polymers" be what makes Titebond different from Elmer's carpenter glue? Again, this is in the context of woodworking and not guitar building.

As for references, and with all due respect to Grit (who is a truly wonderful person, by the way), in Hideo Kamimoto book "Complete Repair Guide, on page 35, also says "Elmer's Glue-All" (is this the older form of Elmer's Carpenter's Glue?) is versatile and easy to use for a variety of miscellaneous gluings" (my understanding being for things like binding and fingerboard dots or rosettes). He says, in a further paragraph "A number of repairmen and builders report good results with Franklin Titebond, a synthetic glue, and this would be worth investigating if hide glue doesn't appeal to you." He is also of the school that hide glue is the best, and cites Franklin Titebond as a suitable replacement, by name, and the only suitable replacement for hide glue.

In Irving Sloan's book, "Steel String Guitar Construction", on page 27, second paragraph reads:

"Titebond (Franklin Glue Co.), a cream colored aliphatic resin glue is the glue principally recommended in this book. IT is much stronger and than polyvinyl resin emulasion glue (Elmer's Glue) and has a built in tack for a fast initial grabbingction. A high solids content gives it excellent gap filling ability, and important property in a glue for end grain joints.
.....

Titebond dries to a hard film of creamy translucence resistant to lacquer adn varnish solvents. It sands well and cures rapidly to with as short clamping time."

Sloan also repeats the "hide glue is the best glue" mantra.

Now, I am no chemist, and I do recognize that these books may not reflect the latest formulations of Elmer's Carpenter's Glue, but even over the intervening years, it has not changed that for guitars, the recommended glue is #1 Hide Glue, and #2 Titebond. It should also be noted that the only measurement of a glue's suitability for use in guitars is not just strength and creep resistance, but also the abiilty to release when repairs are needed. Hide glue is perfect for that, and Titebond is also good in this regard.

If you need further discussion on the pros and cons, see your local luthier. As for me, I was just trying to answer the orignal question, which is "This person gave me a some glue called Tite-Bond. Is this what I need." (from the original poster). My answer is YES, this is exactly what you need, and yes, in the opinion of the vast majority of the guitar makers, factories and repairers, this is both what you need, and it is a significant step up from carpenter's glue. I don't know what his repair skills are, but it won't be the glue that lets the repair down.

Kostas

 

[The Guilds of Grot]

So kostas, do you work for Titebond? :wink:

In one part of the statement, the chemist says:

"Yellow glues have qualities similar to those of white glues, but they contain polymers that speed tack time and improve moisture and creep resistance, at the expense of a slower cure"

and in the next he says:

"Borden's Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue and Franklin's Titebond are two of the best selling brands and are identical"

Which is it? Do the yellow glues have the "Certain Polymers" that make them different, or are they identical? The paragraph is self contradictory. In addition, the statement regarding the long cure time is true of Titebond.

The way I read this is that the "yellow" glue has the "Certain Polymers" that make them different from the "White Glue". And because of these polymers it has a longer curing time.

He then says that the Elmers Yellow Glue and the Titebond are identical.

No contradictions that I can see.

Thanks for allowing me to "stick" my $.02 in! :wink:

 

[kostask]

No, I don't. But I do know that Titebond is used in guitar manufacturing, hand building, and repairing, and repairs. I have quoted two "bibles" of guitar craft, the Sloan book on guitar construction, and the Kamimoto book on repair, and both recommend Titebond. I know luthiers (yes, guitar hand builders) that won't use anything else. I am getting responses back that a woodworking magazine tested a number of glues a while ago, and that a chemist said that the glues are the same (small aside, I am under the impression that the Elmer's carpenter's glue is white, and that Titebond is a cream/off white color that probably puts it in the yellow glue category). He specifically called out Elmer's Carpenter's Glue, not Elmer's Yellow Glue (which, I must admit, I have never seen, all the Elmer's glue that I have seen is white). So in my mind, the Elmer's Carpenter's glue (white) does not contain the "certain polymers" that are in the Titebond (yellow) glue, which doesn't make them "identical".

Now, the woodworking magazine may have been testing for bond strength in a variety of wood joints, and perhaps moisture resistance, or bonding time. But I would bet they didn't leave the glues under 150 lbs of tension for 20 years, or even for a few months, which is far more applicable to guitars.

The multiple book citations, and luthiers that I know, is good enough for me to say go with the Titebond. If anybody wants to use crazy glue (cyano), epoxy, or contact cement, they can do so, and I wish them the best of luck. But the industry standard remains Titebond, and until something better comes along, it will remain that way. I also have no doubt that if something better does come along, the factories, the hand builders, and the repairers will quickly adopt it. But it hasn't happened yet.

Ever wonder why Stew-Mac sells Titebond and not Elmer's (Carpenter's, Yellow, White, etc.) glue?

Kostas

 

[cjd-player]

I believe you have misinterpreted Mustoe's comment. He never said or implied that the yellow glues are the same as the white glues. He said that the yellow glues are similar to the white glues except that the yellow glues contain the extra polymers. Those polymers change the properties of the glues.

Elmers Carpenter's Wood Glue and Franklin Titebond are both yellow aliphatic resin PVA glues with the extra polymers. There is no contradiction in his statement.

Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue is a yellow aliphatic resin PVA glue just as Franklin Titebond is a yellow aliphatic resin PVA glue.
Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue is yellow in color.

When Mustoe says that Elmer's Carpenters Wood Glue and Franklin Titebond are identical, I have no doubt that he analized both of them in his chem lab. That is the nature of the technical articles that are written in Fine Woodworking. Marketing hype, wives tales, and urban legends are debunked.

Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue (Yes, it is yellow) is not the same as Elmer's Glue-All, which is white.
Franklin also makes an equivalent of Elmer's Glue-All. Titebond All Purpose White
http://www.titebond.com/IntroPageTB.ASP?UserType=1&ProdSel=ProductCategoryTB.asp?prodcat=1

 

[The Guilds of Grot]

Just to make it absolutely clear...

Here's the yellow!

Here's the White!

Two very different glues.

 

[Steelpickin']

Kostas,
My apoligies.
Larry

 

[cjd-player]

Just to make it absolutely clear...

No, the clear glue would be cyanoacrylate (super glue)

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: