Another Starfire set of questions

[JohnW63]

Sorry for more posts on seemingly the same subject, but, it isn't that easy to keep track, and the dog ate my notes.

In the back of my mind, I would like a thin bodied electric, like an ES-335 ( I like Larry Carlton ) and the Starefire line seems a great way to get that tone but without the big price tag. So, I've re-read GAD's blog on the Starfires. Keeping track of time lines and pickups used and how they effect the sound of the guitars is what I am trying to nail down. In GAD's view, the HB-1s the SD-1 or the Mini Hums are the pickups to shoot for. The 90s re-issues seem to have a little wider fretboards, so if you can score one, with the pickups before Fender made less than stellar versions, that would be a good purchase.

The trouble is, with an electric, finding videos of unaltered signal paths to compare is hard. A so-so pickup with a NICE amp may sound darn nice. A good pick-up with a ham fisted player may sound like crap.

I don't need a Bigsby on it, as I don't use the one on my NS 175B. So, I think that means I should target a Starfire IV or 4 or a Starfire II or 2. Does the center block make much difference ? Netter sustain perhaps ? I know it would be a bit less prone to feedback.

I having been looking on YouTube. Of course, I'll run into Gregs Guitars.

This clip is a SF-IV with a Fender pickup, if I am right:

https://youtu.be/0Gdq6CuSI4I


And this is a much older 72 SF IV with the HB-1 pickups ( ? ).

https://youtu.be/LY-htarNKok

And of course Pascal with a 66 SF-IV:

https://youtu.be/uZyuPawdZbQ

All with a different sound, but I suspect the last two are very much the same guitar, are they not ?

On the Starfire II front...

Here is a 1997 SF-II. I'm not really fond of the tone he's putting out. Is this due to having the Fender pickups ?

https://youtu.be/O8nEtiRk9Dc

Yet, this is an older SF-II but the playing or amp settings aren't making me say, Ooo. Ahhh either.

https://youtu.be/EZ8XnJ_VQjk

Starfire II video clips are much harder to come by.

Are this clips a good representation of what I can expect or is so much in the hands of the player and the amp/effects that it is not so clear ?

 

[Qvart]

All I can vouch for is my '72 SFIV. Tone and sustain for days. That vid has sound that is definitely amp driven but the HB-1's are pretty versatile. Can't go wrong with vintage.

 

[cc_mac]

The 97 Starfire II in the clip has SD1 pickups. There's a lot of unlike around here for the late 90s early 2000s Fender version of the pickup which is arguably different from the sound of the original mini hums from the 60s, HB1 and SD1 pickups. I had an X150 with those later Fender pickups and really liked the sound on cleaner amp settings but never really got dirty with that guitar. The one advantage to those pickups is that they are standard humbucker size which makes replacing them with something else much easier than any other Guild humbucker including the SD1.

There are so many factors in what the final outcome of "tone" is for an electric guitar that it can be difficult to definitively parse out the pieces and their weight. It starts with how you interact (play) the guitar. Everything else comes after that. Even a given instrument, its setup, amp and settings will have a varied tone with different players or even you depending on how you play it. That is not to deny that pickups play a role and most especially how the pickups are adjusted. In all those clips above, what you hear is how those people play the guitar, set the amp and or signal chain and record it for YT.

The IV is semi hollow and the II is fully hollow. If you have one of each and play it unplugged you can hear the fundamental difference in the sound of the two. They are simply different but equally (to me) enjoyable and form the basis for what happens when they are plugged into an amp. What is more important is how the two the guitars are physically different. The II being a fourteenth fret body joint as opposed to 18 on the IV. It makes a huge difference when you are playing up the neck and start to encounter the the flair to the heel. Of course the IV is also a double cutaway which further extends access and playability to the upper neck. For my II and IV, the II weighs 6 ib 1 oz and the IV is 2 lbs heavier without the added Bigsby (temporarily removed) and the IV is a bit thinner at the rim. Both of my guitars have harp tailpieces and currently sport rosewood bridges. I'd guess there is some difference in the later Starfires with stop tailpieces but have no experience with those.

You may find a II to a much closer albeit thinner physical relative to your NS X175B than a IV. If you are looking for a different feel than the IV might be the way to go. I would only advise that you not exclude the later Fender pickup models as a set of whatever pickups will go into it. If you can find ways to play them in person. Accept that you'll eventually get the electric sound you like and focus on how it feels in your hands and what impact that has on your playing.

 

[guildman63]

I played a late 70's Starfire IV Sunday in my local Guitar Center (Natick, MA). In terms of tone it was off the charts good! Regarding the neck, I'm not sold. The first time I played it was shortly after GC received it. The neck had a significant forward bow in it at that time. I gave it to the salesperson who passed it along to the in-store tech to adjust. Most of the problem was resolved, and it now plays pretty well and clean throughout with low action. It does still seem to have a bit of a slight bow and maybe a slight twist in the neck, and the neck may benefit from a steam (around $150 - $200 the last I checked). The asking price is around $1800, but I would offer a little less based on needed work. A 30 day return policy helps. As for the rest of it, I didn't inspect it closely as I was focused on the neck.

 

[GAD]

There is a huge difference between semi hollow and hollow IMO.

First, a SF4 will be much heavier than a SF2/3

Second, the SF2/3 will likely be a feedback machine at volume. That's easy to manage with some practice, but it's significant for many.

Third, even among the same model, there are differences in the physical depth between years. I know of at least three different depths: 70s (thick), mid 90s (really thin), and late 90s and beyond (medium). I've never measured, but they feel very different to me.

Finally, tone is a very personal thing. I've never played a bad Starfire. They've all been fabulous instruments, so when I say something like the Fender HB1s aren't inspiring, that's in comparison to the vintage HB1s. FWIW, I think that many of the pickups shipped with Gibson Historic models aren't inspiring, either, and those are $8,000 guitars.

To be brutally honest, 15 years ago I would have never noticed the difference between pickups. I'm a cork-sniffer now, mostly because I can afford to be, and subtle differences intrigue me. If you're playing through a Line-6, pickups matter less IMO. If you're playing through a '63 Bassman or a Clark, or a Two Rock, you'll probably be more likely to notice the difference between pickups. I played solid state amps for decades (hey, it was the 80s), and it wasn't until I bought a nice tube amp in the early 2000s that I 'got' it. I played some nice silver-face Fenders in the late 70s, early 80s, but we just slammed a Big Muff Pi in front of them because cleans were for folk music.

I've owned three or four Guilds made by Fender, and every one of them has been a great guitar. Yes, I swapped out the Fender HB1s or rewound them, but the guitars themselves have been every bit the guitars I own from Westerly. Now, I will say that most of the the truly spectacular Guilds I've played have been from Westerly, but since I've owned significantly more Westerly models, the chance of there being gems in that group is higher. I currently own a Corona SFIII-P90 that is a fabulous instrument.

 

[GAD]

Also, Pascal would sound good playing a $100 3/4 scale pink Stagg through a Korg Pandora pocket amp with iPhone headphones.

 

[parker_knoll]

the mini-hums are not hifi pickups at all. perhaps more akin to a Gretsch Hilotron they sound compressed to me. Great for raucous 60s riffs, you might prefer the HB-1 for more technical playing. However, I loved the mini-hum in the neck position. You can also grab a Starfire with DeArmonds which are the opposite, very full and open and also VERY percussive IMO.

You could buy a modern Starfire which are cheap and easily have the pickups rewound for about $30 each into something better

 

[kakerlak]

I think you might get along best with a late '80s-early '90s Starfire 4, with a stop tailpiece and the still-real Guild HB-1s. Since you mention your driving motivation being Carlton's Gibson 335, rather than any Guild, I suspect you'll prefer the sound and feel of a stop tail over the harp tailpiece. In that regard, you might even get along a bit better with a Bigsby that you never use, simply for its being anchored to the top, than you would a harp tailpiece.

A bonus with those later SF-4s, IIRC is they've got ebony fretboards, which I personally prefer.

EDIT/PS - re-reading through the above and reconsidering my advice, you might look for a Fender-era Starfire. I really, really like HB-1s, however, since you're coming from a totally different beast, in the NS series guitars and have Gibson-based lust, you might be happiest with a stop-tail, late '90s-'00s SF-4 with replaced pickups. Those newer ones will swap out easily for virtually any aftermarket humbuckers. Get a recent SF-4 and swap pickups for something like Seth Lovers and I have a funny feeling you'll be pretty happy. It's about the least "Guild"-ness you could wind up with in the Starfire world, but you'd still have a very nice guitar that you might actually like the best.

 

[guildman63]

Also, Pascal would sound good playing a $100 3/4 scale pink Stagg through a Korg Pandora pocket amp with iPhone headphones.

You saw that video too? :highly_amused:

 

[txbumper57]

In my experience I don't mind the Fender made pickups and have even had some good ones. I do love that they are standard size and can interchange readily without extensive modification. I have had pickups from Expensive Custom Shop Phat Staples to $40 a piece GFS Hot Nashville Retrotrons installed in late 90's Starfires, II-V. I have loved them all. The thing I really like about the late 90's/early 2000's SF's is that not only is the Quality of build Impeccable, The neck are mostly 1 11/16" with a full neck profile which helps my hand out. Not to mention that you can pick up a Really nice Late 90's early 2000's SF2 ,3, or 4 for between $850-$1200 if you look hard enough.:rugby:

 

[Sleeko]

The first one is right up my alley. But that's just my taste. :stupid:

 

[JohnW63]

So... I would gather that ALL the Starfires of almost ANY era are pretty darn good and how any of them sound is as much up to my playing as any of the other bits and pieces in the chain. I get the idea that the late model ones could have more pick-up replacement choices, but that would mean buying one with the expressed purposes of changing them out. I'm not sure I know enough to know WHAT to replace them with. Of course, the NS line is cheapest of all, but there are reported issues with the pickups, so, that would be an even bigger candidate for a modification.

I guess I need to try some and see, but they aren't that easy to find and try, and... which is a biggie, I don't have electric guitar chops yet, so I would be a poor tester of good vs great.

Thanks for the input.

 

[TVeye]

You could buy a modern Starfire which are cheap and easily have the pickups rewound for about $30 each into something better

Any chance you could give your $30 pickup winder a plug?

 

[parker_knoll]

it's Kent Armstrong's son. He's great

http://www.armstrongpickups.co.uk/

 

[JohnW63]

Where does the Capri fall into the Guild line, as compared to the Starfire ? In fact, either a T-100 D or a CE-100D would be a nice guitar. Wouldn't the pickups be the same ?

 

[TVeye]

Thanks, seems a good resource. Your math is a little off though

 

[guildman63]

Where does the Capri fall into the Guild line, as compared to the Starfire ? In fact, either a T-100 D or a CE-100D would be a nice guitar. Wouldn't the pickups be the same ?

The Capri was Guilds answer to the Gibson ES-175. The T-100 is a thin line version of the Capri and is very similar to the Starfire I, II and III, which all share the same hollow design. The Starfire IV, V and VI are semi-hollow. The Capri is thicker, so while the pickups may be the same relative to the Starfire III, that difference will affect the tone. Hollow vs semi-hollow as well as the tone woods used will also affect tone. One of the best guitars I have ever owned or played was a 1956 CE-100. I played the new NS CE-100 this morning, and it was very nice.

 

[parker_knoll]

Thanks, seems a good resource. Your math is a little off though

it was a long time ago

 

[Synchro]

Where does the Capri fall into the Guild line, as compared to the Starfire ? In fact, either a T-100 D or a CE-100D would be a nice guitar. Wouldn't the pickups be the same ?

I have both a Starfire III and a Capri, NS models. The Capri strikes me as having a more profound voice in the lower register. Strangely, it's very good for Surf music or other genres where the lower strings are prominent. Not surprisingly, it's quite good for Jazz as well.

I prefer the mini humbuckers over just about any pickup I've ever heard. They strike me as a great compromise between the sonic weight of a full-sized humbucker and the lightness of a single-coil.

 

[JohnW63]

So, you like the NS Capri ? I thought they would be afflicted by the miswired pickup issue , like the Starfires ?