Another new guy

johnnywrongnote

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Hi
I've been researching Guild 12 strings and discovered this forum. Now I spend an hour a day reading posts that go back for many years. This is the place to go to learn about Guilds! I've been watching ebay for older 12 strings and there was an F212XL from 1979 that stayed on for a week but got no bids. (Starting bid was $895). It was located close to where I live and if the seller ever answers my e-mail I may try to look at it. Anyway, the pictures indicated it was in pretty good shape except the bridge looked like it had been sanded down some. My question is, what height should an original bridge on one of these rigs be, in case I do get to look at it? John
 

killdeer43

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johnnywrongnote said:
Hi Joe
I think I live about five miles from the road sign in your signature!
John
If that's the case, you need to look under the ebay/craigslist section here and check out the good looking 12 string for sale in Shoreline. Good price, too.

I drooled over it but I more than likely will not pursue the overwhelming lust. :wink:

Joe
 

learnintoplay62

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Hi LTG members, another newbie here. I've been spending waaaay too much on this site- but lovin every minute of it. I recently traded in a big baby Taylor for a Dv-6 2008 tacoma. All I can say is wow! Huge difference. I do have a question though, I have noticed that allot of the members aren't listing more recent models in their collections. Why is that?
 

Taylor Martin Guild

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Welcome to the Forum.
If the bridge has been shaved, the neck may need to be re-set.
Some people shave the bridge to put off a neck set for a while.
This may be the case.
If so, offer a lower price so that you can offset the cost of a reset.
If it doesn't need a reset, that would be a very good price but I think the reason that there were no bids is the fear of a reset.
 

devellis

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I can't give you specifics on the bridge height but I can give you some explanation of why this might be an issue. A 12-string is under enormous tension, especially if the previous owner has been careless and either used medium strings or tuned it above pitch.

The constant tension doesn't usually bow the neck (thanks to truss rods) but alters the geometry of the sound box, including the neck block. This changes the orientation of the neck to the surface of the guitar. Think of taking a deck of cards and sticking a thin plastic ruler into it, so that it sticks out of the deck kind of like the neck of a guitar. If you bend the deck itself, pushing down with your thumbs in the center and pulling up slightly with your fingertips at the top end (where the ruler sticks out) and bottom end of the deck, the ruler's location will change relative to the top surface of the deck. If you had a length of elastic chord (to eliminate slack) running from the far end of the ruler to the distant edge of the deck of cards, the space from the top of the deck to that chord would increase as you bent the deck. This is similar to what happens to a guitar's body (in a less extreme form) after many years of being under string tension that is trying to fold the whole thing in half. As a result of these geometry shifts, the action on the guitar gets uncomfortably high.

To get the action back to a comfortable playing position, the saddle can be sanded so that it sits lower in the bridge. Up to this point, that'll work and things haven't gotten to be too much of a problem. It's pretty common for saddles to be shaved to set action lower. But if the action needs multiple adjustments over time, the saddle can get progressively lower as its height is adjusted again and again.

At some point, the angle at which the strings cross the saddle from the bridge pins (referred to as the "break angle") is too shallow. At first, the height of the saddle just lowers the break angle to an extent that makes the guitar a little less loud and responsive. At some point, the break angle can get so low that the strings actually rest on the wood behind the saddle as the saddle recedes into the bridge from successive lowerings. Early on, the break angle can be improved by slotting and ramping the pin holes. This involves sawing little sloping grooves in the bridge and bridge plate (the chunk of wood under the top that supports the bridge) that run from the pin holes toward the saddle. These let the ball ends of the strings sit a bit closer to the saddle itself (essentially, under the bridge plate rather than merely against it) and increase the break angle. But if the saddle is nearly flush with the wood, this ramping approach no longer works. So, the saddle may be thinned by sanding down its top surface, thus exposing more of the saddle.

The problem with this sequence of events is that it's not the best fix for the original problem. As the geometry of the guitar changes under stress (and Guild guitars resist those stresses better than most), the best remedy is a neck reset. This involves separating the dovetail joint that joins the neck to the body, freeing the fingerboard extension from the top, and pulling the whole neck off of the guitar. The joint is then trimmed and/or shimmed so that it will situate the neck at the proper angle, tilted farther back, when the whole thing is put back together.

This is a repair that we all like to avoid because it's expensive and invasive. I just had this work done on an old Martin tenor guitar and it cost several hundred dollars (although the work is immaculate and you can't tell anything has been done). If this work is done early on, it's a big hit financially for the owner but everything can be restored to the way it should be. On the other hand, if there has been a lot of tinkering with the bridge, the saddle will be way too low for the new, correct neck angle. Furthermore, if the bridge has been thinned, you can't just drop in a taller saddle because there will be too little bridge base left to support it properly. Even if the saddle stays in place, the leverage of the taller saddle in the shallower slot may well split the bridge. So, suddenly you need a new bridge (even if it hasn't actually split but is just too thin to work) in addition to a neck reset.

I'm not suggesting that this is the case with the 12-string you saw on eBay or any other specific instrument. This is just how the scenario can unfold. I worry very little about a saddle that's been lowered a small amount, although I recognize that it may be a sign that a neck reset is inevitable at some point in the near future. Sometimes, lowering the saddle makes the action good and things will stay that way for a very long time. But once the bridge has been thinned, I take that as a sign that things may have progressed further down this worrisome road. I'd want to be sure the neck angle wasn't too bad and would factor into the actual cost of the instrument the price of the work needed to make it right. Again, it might be that the bridge was shaved just the tiniest bit and that things aren't dire, but I'd certainly be vigilant.

The neck angle should be such that if you take a 2-foot metal ruler and lay its edge on top of the frets, the lower edge of the ruler should align with the top of the unthinned bridge. If it falls substantially below the bridge's original top edge, the neck's position has moved upward and needs to be reset. You can also eyeball this by looking down the fingerboard from the nut end, lining up the edge of the fingerboard at the near and far ends kind of like rifle sights. If that alignment has you line of sight below the top edge of the unaltered bridge (or where that edge would be if the bridge hadn't been altered) a neck reset may be needed. If the ruler or your gaze fall 1/8 of an inch low, that's not a biggie. But something like 1/4 of an inch low would suggest that the neck needed a reset.

I hope that I haven't either bored you to tears with information you already knew or raised concerns that don't apply in this particular case but I figured better too much info than too little.
 

fronobulax

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Welcome to both newcomers.

The reason some of us (i.e. me) don't list any recent Guilds in our sigs is because Guild isn't making electrics or basses at the moment. I think there are also a few people who will say that the newer Guilds are very good but they are just a skosh shy of a Westerly Guild.
 

dreadnut

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Yeah, welcome you guys!

Good observation on the types of Guilds, and good answer from frono. I might add that Westerly and older acoustic Guilds are tried and true, the more recent manufacturing facilities haven't been doing it long enough to establish that type of reputation. There are some great guitars they built in Coronado, Tacoma, and Connecticut, but they've been in transition for about 6-7 years now. Hopefully they'll stay put and find some stability in Connecticut, but with FMC who knows? :roll:

At any rate, we also know vintage Guilds are a great value, especially as compared to other American made guitars. For example, a vintage DV-52 can still be had for around $900. See what you can find used in a Martin, Taylor, or Gibson for $900 and I bet it won't have bookmatched rosewood sides & back, ebony bridge, ebony fretboard, MOP inlaid headstock, AA spruce top with scalloped bracing, gold plated hardware - it just ain't gonna happen.

Look up the price of a '76 Martin D-18. A '76 Guild D-25 can be had for about $600, and it will blow the doors off the D-18 both tone and volume wise. I'm just sayin :D
 

jgmaute

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Welcome Johnny and Learning. Kick your shoes off, relax your mind. Johnny good luck on your hunt for a 12. I second the idea that if you're in the Seattle area you check out the 12 listed in the ebay/craigs list. It looks good in the pictures and the prices seems right.

Learning, speaking for myself, I got my f312 and D55 new and stuck with them (well, except when I had D55s stolen and had to replace them). The M-20 is old because an LTG member found it on Craig's List in MA, another LTGer checked it out for me, and I bought it for less than a new hog GAD. This is a dangerous place to hang out if you want to keep your $, it just fuels your G.A.S. (Guild acquision syndrome) and your guitar lists grows and grows but we do enjoy our guitars. Joan
 

capnjuan

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Hi John and welcome to LTG; can't answer your question but welcome anyway! CJ

learnintoplay62 said:
... I have noticed that allot of the members aren't listing more recent models in their collections. Why is that?
Hi LTP and welcome to you too! There's a strong bias here towards NY/Hoboken/Westerly Guilds. A lot of members here are ... <ahem> ... older people who believe, like old fogies everywhere, that older is better and, not to put too fine a point on it, a 10-15 year old D55 costs 60%-70% of a new one ... another form of the old saying: 'money talks'. Speaking of old sayings; 'they ain't making them like they used to' has meaning here too ... let's try it in pictures:

cars.jpg



Welcome! CJ
 

killdeer43

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learnintoplay62 said:
Hi LTG members, another newbie here. I've been spending waaaay too much on this site- but lovin every minute of it. I recently traded in a big baby Taylor for a Dv-6 2008 tacoma. All I can say is wow! Huge difference. I do have a question though, I have noticed that allot of the members aren't listing more recent models in their collections. Why is that?
Wow, a double welcome on one thread! What are the odds?

learnin,
I think some of us prefer older guitars for some of the same reasons we might have preferred older women (when we were younger). Better mojo? Easier to handle? Broken in? So many possibilities, so little time!

Make up your own reasons!! :wink:

Stay tuned,
Joe
 

GardMan

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learnintoplay62 said:
I have noticed that allot of the members aren't listing more recent models in their collections. Why is that?

Welcome to the both of you!

As to your question, LTP, I bought my first Guild back in Jan '73. ~4 years ago, I decided my old D-35 was too precious, and I needed another "travel guitar." But, I wanted it to play and feel just like my old Guild... so I started looking for another '70s era Guild on eBay, and ended up with my D-25 (arched mahogany back) and G-37 (arched maple back), both from '74. The intent was to bring them both in and try them out, keep the better and sell the lesser. Problem was, I loved 'em both! I was surprised that they sounded so different from each other... I had never played anything but mahogany bodied guitars before. That started me on a quest to sample all the different tone woods Guild used in dreads. Several of these tonewood combinations (pearwood and ash) were only used for brief periods in the '70s or '80s. I don't think Guild even makes a maple-bodied dread, anymore. So all of my recent purchases been found on-line, thru eBay (5) or dealers (1).

Another important consideration... if you are careful, you can save quite a bit of $$$ by buying used: none of my Guilds cost me more than $1200 plus the cost of a setup (~$100). In fact, I did a little calculation a couple months ago. In terms of "buying power," my most expensive Guild was my first: $300 for my D-35 in Jan '73 equates to ~$1500 in todays dollars.
 

Bikerdoc

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Welcome from w central Ohio. Obviously you've already enjoyed much of the forum but there's more to come.

Peace
 

learnintoplay62

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Hey thanks guys and gals for your friendly replies. Anybody out there with a Dv -6. I am really enjoying it ... however it is a little tough on my shoulder, had a shoulder operation last year from a torn labrum. Are all guilds this thick ? Also, anyone on LTG from philly or South Jersey .
Happy to be here.. Bob
 

killdeer43

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learnintoplay62 said:
... however it is a little tough on my shoulder, had a shoulder operation last year from a torn labrum.
Which shoulder is it, Bob?
I've had the "pleasure" of two (R/L) torn rotator cuffs so I can probably wax nostalgic about 'playing hurt.' :wink:

Joe
 
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