After the glowing report from New Hartford tour

[fronobulax]

What kind of entry level or intermediate prices are they looking at? That would be my next question.

Not sure what your question is. As far as I know this pricelist applies to New Hartford Guilds available now. I suspect that the "standard" series, when released might be less but there was no indication of pricing at LMG.

How many models under $1000? That pdf is tough to scan but I only saw maybe 3-4? Hopefully the Standard series will be lest costly, otherwise I'd rather shell out the bucks for a Westerly, just my honest opinion.

Geeze, do I have to to all the work for you? :lol: :lol: :lol:
I read the catalog pretty closely before LMG and my recollection is that all the models that I knew to be made in New Hartford were upwards of $2300. The GADs seemed to peak at about $1500. That suggests a sweet spot of $1500-$2300 for the new "Standard" line. I'd be willing to go out on a limb right now and say there almost certainly will not be a New Hartford made guitar with a sticker under $1,000 so if that is your sweet spot you need to find a dealer who will discount at least 30-40% or stick to the used/vintage market.

 

[MojoTooth]

Geeze, do I have to to all the work for you? :lol: :lol: :lol:
I read the catalog pretty closely before LMG and my recollection is that all the models that I knew to be made in New Hartford were upwards of $2300. The GADs seemed to peak at about $1500. That suggests a sweet spot of $1500-$2300 for the new "Standard" line. I'd be willing to go out on a limb right now and say there almost certainly will not be a New Hartford made guitar with a sticker under $1,000 so if that is your sweet spot you need to find a dealer who will discount at least 30-40% or stick to the used/vintage market.

Noted, I'd rather stick to a vintage Westerly guitar. Like I said before, I imagine the price will be pretty outrageous, which upwards of $2300 or $1500-2300 may not be outrageous for most others, but I think about the vintage guitars I could get for that amount and it is a no brainer. For $1500 I could get the vintage T-100 I have been looking at AND a Corona D-25. I am sure they are going to be very nice guitars, but for that much I think they are banking on them being the "new hot Guild guitars" that many people will drop dough on immediately along with the Guild faithfuls. No offense meant to anyone at all. I am sure they will be great guitars.

 

[chazmo]

Mojo,

I think there's a symbiosis that you're missing in your analysis. The climb in quality, breadth, and price of the New Hartford Guilds will end up (ultimately) jacking up the price of the vintage stuff. I realize these are strange economic times, but normally that's what you'd expect to happen I just can't tell you when to expect it. We're clearly at the beginnnig of that cycle. Dispelling concerns about the health and future of Guild is part of what will get the ball rolling and surely one of the reasons why Guild decided to have us come pay them a visit. I'm quite certain they wouldn't have gone to such lengths just to shut me up.

Seriously, though, there is a bit of concern to be had here. The Guild legacy is not just high-end Traditional Series guitars, as we all know. I do not quite know how value/affordability gets measured now. The D-25, for example, was a bang-up hit for Guild back in the '70s and '80s because of its enormous value, but does it make sense today? Does it even make sense as a Standard Series model? Out of New Hartford and built in the USA, perhaps not. I don't know. You got your DVs coming out of Mexico and your GADs coming out of China... It's tough to figure.

We do know that Fender is giving Guild time (and unprecedented support -- we have that directly from their words) to work these questions out. The people we met no doubt have their minds wrapped around these issues and, frankly, their jobs depend on making the right choices. They know this; they have been through this with Ovation. All we can do is critique their choices (as we always do) and help get the word out when we like what we see. We are incredibly lucky to have such experienced hands building the new Guilds, and they are also lucky to have the Guild legacy to protect. Yet another symbiosis to recognize.

 

[MojoTooth]

I think it makes sense to eventually make a D25 type guitar in the USA again. The real dilemma is would Guild do it, since they already will be making so much off all the other models. But I think it makes sense. Personally a Guild made in China or Ensenada just isn't a Guild, at least in my opinion. I know many of them are great, but all along the draw of a Guild for me was American craftsmanship.

 

[bunuel]

For me, it's simply an issue of proven reliability, as well as tone. The hoboken's & westerly's have a proven track record, granted not perfect, but better than most. The reliability post-fender has been spotty, as evidenced by the many postings of premature neck resets and other issues reported here on LTG. The new factory might be fine, but they've yet to establish that. The Guild of yesteryear, did, in spades, as I reflect upon everytime I play my '77 F412, my '88 D40, & my '87 F112, all of which continue to crush all contenders decades after being built.

 

[Ridgemont]

A lot of companies that produce guitars for everybody have their low end stuff as imports. Taylor 100 and 200 series are out of Mexico, as well as Martins very low end stuff in the $500 price range. Now those guitars have Taylor and Martin at the top of the headstock, but the difference is that they look and feel like they belong in that price range IMHO. I have not played any DV out of Mexico, but the satin finish gives me the impression of a budget guitar. The problem, in my opinion, is the GAD line. It says Guild at the headstock, and has excellent craftsmanship. They also sound very nice when you get a good one.

 

[fungusyoung]

I'm really glad the tour/LMG went so well. I really wish I could have made it, but things have been crazy lately with the recent move, etc.

I do, however, share some of the same skepticism of other LTG'ers.

These guitars are expensive. While I understand and respect the small volume/high quality direction that the CT-stuff seems to be heading in, this seems like a risky approach to the market especially right now. It is also a new approach for Guild, something that they sort of seem to be carrying on from the later Tacoma days. I just don't know how well this is going to play for them, but I do wish them the very best. It's just an uphill crawl, though.

From my own selfish perspective, I've never been in the market for a $2K/+ guitar, and I probably never will be. I have had two high quality custom made electrics built for less than this, and I've also gotten everything I possibly could want in an acoustic guitar for $1000 or less (I currently have four.... 2 Westerly Guilds, a Martin & a Gibson). Looks like I'll be buying from China or Mexico if I ever get a new Guild.

I personally don't think the new pricing will impact the used Westerly era market much at all. But, just as an example, I honestly cannot imagine buying a new D55 at the current prices when I compare what I could get a used one from the 90's for.

 

[6L6]

I think it still comes down to the individual guitar. Not where it was made.

+1

 

[guildzilla]

It's certainly a new vision for Guild, and I share some of your concerns and objections, Fungus. Many of us feel like we've been buying used/vintage Guilds that should cost $2,000 for $900 and $1,500 Guilds for $700. It gets hard to relate to new guitar pricing under those circumstances. I'm so satisfied with what I have and what I can get that it's like selling a $100 restaurant meal to a guy who just pigged out on five or six lobsters down at the dock. It takes an effort to think outside my own box.

I also agree it's somewhat uphill for New Hartford - the primary challenge is in the marketing plan - but this boutique approach for the USA Guild models was, IMO, the only practical approach available. I'd sum it up as: start small, do it right, and hope the reputation grows and spreads. There was no way that FMIC was going to rationalize an immediate return to a product line as extensive and production on the scale of the later Westerly years. Certain great Guild models - the D-25 is the classic example - only make sense if a builder can take advantage of economies of scale by building lots and lots of them. I don't think we'll ever see that again. And not just D-25's, either. There were more than 3,000 reissue Starfires built between 1997-2001. And 3,000 Bluesbirds and Blues 90's.

The only message I would send to the New Hartford folks is relative to the marketing message. I suspect that the long-time Guild owner and fan will tend to get his/her hackles up when they insist that the NH Guilds will be the best Guilds ever. I'm one of those people and, frankly, my reaction to hearing that claim is adversarial. I'd be more appreciative of a message that promised guitars worthy of the great Guild tradition.

But I don't mind that the workforce at NH is trying to build the best Guilds ever. That's a very good thing.

 

[Greenwoods]

I come from a different angle on this ...

I have no history with Guild what so ever. Never gave them a second look and certainly never felt like I wanted to own one. My stable is filled with Collings, Martin, Takamine and Adamas. But the skilled hands that now build your Guilds are the very hands that have built my Adamas and Ovation guitars for years. Over 100 of them. I know may of those people personally and it was the move of Guild to New Hartford that CAUGHT my interest in Guild.

So, yes it seems there is some melon-collie posts about Westerley and Tocoma and stuff. I understand that. Many of my Ovation buddies are pissed as hell that the majority of the Ovation line has now moved to Korea. But we have no control over this. And maybe, just maybe the move to New Hartford will bring more people like me into the fold. That certainly can't be a bad thing for the brand.

For the record I picked up one of the proto D40's last year and was completely freaking blown away by it. Time came for a 12-string and I grabbed a maple backed F-412. and now it looks like I just closed the deal on something very special and rare which I won't jinx by mentioning it just yet.

I get what you are saying about "back in the day", but at least in my case I probably never would have bought a single Guild had they not been built by my buddies in New Hartford. And I might not be alone.

Dave

 

[guildzilla]

That's cool, Dave. It's encouraging to hear about your experiences with and your respect for the craftsmanship of the New Hartford guitar builders. It would be a good thing for Guild if there are a lot more folks like you who are fans of this workforce.

 

[West R Lee]

Geeze, do I have to to all the work for you? :lol: :lol: :lol:
I read the catalog pretty closely before LMG and my recollection is that all the models that I knew to be made in New Hartford were upwards of $2300. The GADs seemed to peak at about $1500. That suggests a sweet spot of $1500-$2300 for the new "Standard" line. I'd be willing to go out on a limb right now and say there almost certainly will not be a New Hartford made guitar with a sticker under $1,000 so if that is your sweet spot you need to find a dealer who will discount at least 30-40% or stick to the used/vintage market.

Noted, I'd rather stick to a vintage Westerly guitar. Like I said before, I imagine the price will be pretty outrageous, which upwards of $2300 or $1500-2300 may not be outrageous for most others, but I think about the vintage guitars I could get for that amount and it is a no brainer. For $1500 I could get the vintage T-100 I have been looking at AND a Corona D-25. I am sure they are going to be very nice guitars, but for that much I think they are banking on them being the "new hot Guild guitars" that many people will drop dough on immediately along with the Guild faithfuls. No offense meant to anyone at all. I am sure they will be great guitars.

I will too. Man you could get one heck of a Westerly for $2300. Nice guitars built in Connecticut I'm sure, but the jury will be out in my book for many years....if they last that long. With the previous track record of Fender/Guild, I'd be surprised. If they can get more into the hands of the big name artists, it would go a long way towards that end. And I will admit that I've been seeing a few more Guilds on CMT, but after the previous 15 years and 4 homes later, I'm not easily convinced.

West

 

[FNG]

Guild Guitars have been made in NY, Hoboken, Westerly, CA, Tacoma, and now CT.

So...Westerly made Guilds are posers too. :wink:


If you think the current Guild retail/street prices are outrageous, then you haven't been pricing new guitars. You get what you pay for...

 

[Brad Little]

Nice guitars built in Connecticut I'm sure, but the jury will be out in my book for many years....if they last that long. With the previous track record of Fender/Guild, I'd be surprised.

This is the first "home" for Guild since Westerly. They are not made at Fender or Tacoma preexisting shops. Admittedly they do share some space with Ovation and Hamer, but the lion's share is Guild.The moves from New York to Hoboken to Westerly were made because of space limitations due to growth. Westerly was old, although probably not outgrown. Fender has made an investment here that even they can probably not afford to write off. I think they will be there for a while, and FWIW, the guitars I played there are as good or better than any Guild I've ever played, and I've been a fan and owner since 1965, and taught in a shop that carried them for several years.
Brad

 

[JerryR]

I've checked 'jury still out', but my GAS as many folks will know is to acquire (when funds are not being drained so much), a Westerley D55 sunburst (with a good pick up fitted) as a rosewood companion for my Hog Westerley D35. However, having read all the NH feedback, I would give serious consideration to a new D55 with Detar fitted. I did handle one at Arlington Texas in October which I think was NH made, and reckon it would be a nice tone when suitably 'run in'.

 

[fungusyoung]

If you think the current Guild retail/street prices are outrageous, then you haven't been pricing new guitars. You get what you pay for...

This is a fair point. I'll admit that as this trend has gained steam, I began looking at used guitars much more across the board because the economy has hurt used prices a lot more than new . This really puzzles me. But, still... Guild is drifting far from "the poor man's Martin" they were once perceived as. Maybe that is their best possible approach, I can't pretend to know. What I do know is that what they are doing is very different from what made the brand a great fit for me.

FMIC has also done a LOT of damage to the Guild brand name since they packed up the Westerly plant... which is why not everyone here is about to jump on board, especially considering how inexpensively the Westerly Guilds remain in comparison. I think that's really the point for me. Why would I spend $2000 on a new F212XL when I could get a really cool Westerly era one for close to half of that? I felt the same way about F30's made in Tacoma. I never even gave the new ones a serious look because I got a ridiculous '98 for peanuts in comparison. West's point as to how far $2300 goes for a Westerly Guild cannot be overstated, IMO.

FMIC raised Fender prices by almost 40% in some cases during the height of the economic downturn. Though an about-face (to some extent) took place months later, I think a lot of educated players are buying used instead of new now. It's just very tough to trust anything FMIC does these days given the callousness and bad business move that last whopping increase turned out to reveal.

 

[chazmo]

I can only offer this guys... I had a conversation yesterday with Carl, the owner of our local music store, as I was placing my order for the new Standard Series F-212XL. He told me a consistent message with what he'd told me before. Economy sucks, sales are down, but Guild prices are competitive. He is happy about the existence of the Chinese GADs as he can carry and move those. He also rolled with the punches that Fender dished out earlier in the year (or last year) when there was a price spike, which was abated.

As all of you have said quite well, New Hartford has a lot to prove. We are only here to tell you that they're building outstanding guitars, have truly outstanding people, and they are committed to being the home of Guild in the USA.

No one on the tour made any claims about out-performing Westerly or anything like that. That would be ridiculous. I will only offer up to you that you should trust me that these guys "get" the brand legacy thing. The "best Guilds ever" line is a sign of pride in their work, not meant as disparaging remarks on the past (I believe). As you guys said, time will tell. The passion these guys/gals have for their work is phenomenal -- no NIH syndrome going on in New Hartford. Whether Fender ultimately appreciates that or not, I will not guess on. Dave G., the brand rep. in Scottsdale, knows his s**t. That much I can assure you.

 

[FNG]

If you think the current Guild retail/street prices are outrageous, then you haven't been pricing new guitars. You get what you pay for...

This is a fair point. I'll admit that as this trend has gained steam, I began looking at used guitars much more across the board because the economy has hurt used prices a lot more than new . This really puzzles me. But, still... Guild is drifting far from "the poor man's Martin" they were once perceived as. Maybe that is their best possible approach, I can't pretend to know. What I do know is that what they are doing is very different from what made the brand a great fit for me.

FMIC has also done a LOT of damage to the Guild brand name since they packed up the Westerly plant... which is why not everyone here is about to jump on board, especially considering how inexpensively the Westerly Guilds remain in comparison. I think that's really the point for me. Why would I spend $2000 on a new F212XL when I could get a really cool Westerly era one for close to half of that? I felt the same way about F30's made in Tacoma. I never even gave the new ones a serious look because I got a ridiculous '98 for peanuts in comparison. West's point as to how far $2300 goes for a Westerly Guild cannot be overstated, IMO.

FMIC raised Fender prices by almost 40% in some cases during the height of the economic downturn. Though an about-face (to some extent) took place months later, I think a lot of educated players are buying used instead of new now. It's just very tough to trust anything FMIC does these days given the callousness and bad business move that last whopping increase turned out to reveal.

Price a comparably trimmed Martin vs. Guild....I would wager the Martin is still more expensive.

For example a new Martin J-40 retails for 4449. A new F-50R retails for 3299. The new Martin J12-40 retails for 5199 and a new F-512 retails for 3399.

Pretty competitive.

 

[West R Lee]

Guild Guitars have been made in NY, Hoboken, Westerly, CA, Tacoma, and now CT.

So...Westerly made Guilds are posers too. :wink:


If you think the current Guild retail/street prices are outrageous, then you haven't been pricing new guitars. You get what you pay for...

I hear ya Effin, but it's hard for me to compare a year at Corona, a couple of years at Tacoma, and now maybe a year at New Hartford with the 34 years spent at Westerly. As far as New York and Hoboken are concerned, obviously New York was the birthplace which gives it nostalgia, then the move to Hoboken for a bit more space......sure were some nice guitars that came from both. That brings us to Westerly, where an entire generation of guitars were designed and built, over 3 decades spent there. I'm a hard sell I know, but I don't think any location will ever come close to being held in the same reverence to me as the respect I have for Westerly. There were just so many fine guitars designed and built at the Westerly facility, any location has a ways to go to be held in the same high esteem.

Then what? Corporate Fender moves Guild across the country........twice...... and moves 3 times in a span of 8 years in an attempt to somehow boost profit.

I will give Fender credit for some things. They've obviously never lost respect for the brand, and for whatever reason, have refused to give up on Guild. I'm happy that some of you guys had a good time at the factory.....sounds fascinating. I was also a bit surprised to hear of Fender's generosity. I hope as much as any of you that New Hartford Guilds will one day surpass Westerly in terms of longevity and quality of product. If you read back here in a past thread, you can read where I said the same thing about the Tacoma factory when it opened. I just think it will take another generation to find out if guitars built at any of these locations will prove the equal to a well built Westerly. I just don't see any possible way to compare New Hartford, or any of the locations over the past 10 years for that matter with Westerly, but I can definately see how some that have recently visited the NH factory would be enthusiastic about the future of the line, I'm just trying to be objective, really.....to look at the big picture.

I don't think I submitted a question when Chaz was asking for them, but mine would have been, "Why do you continue to snub the largest guitar show in the world?" .....or more diplomatically......" Sir, each year, the largest guitar show in the world is held at Arlington, Texas, yet there hasn't been a Guild booth at the show. Does Guild have plans to display their products at Arlington or at shows like it?"

At this point, I think a comparison of NH and Westerly is laughable. No doubt they are building beautiful guitars in Connecticut, and I'll bet they sound pretty good too. And if you were lucky enough to watch them being built, my guess is that you could visit any guitar manufacturing facility and watch guitars being built. Kudos to Fender for handing out gifts, a good marketing tool, but let's see how well they market to the guitar buying public in general.

Let me again make it clear that I am ecstatic that the Guild line will continue, and in my heart, I hope they turn out to be incredible guitars, but I'd have to click "The jury is still out" on this one. Let's see if the facility lasts more than 5 years or so before we declare it Mecca.

West

 

[fungusyoung]

Price a comparably trimmed Martin vs. Guild....I would wager the Martin is still more expensive.

For example a new Martin J-40 retails for 4449. A new F-50R retails for 3299. The new Martin J12-40 retails for 5199 and a new F-512 retails for 3399.

IMHO, a Martin should be more expensive than a guitar being made at a brand new factory by a company that's done next to nothing to promote themselves or to create a niche in this market within the past 10 years.

Guild needs to earn their place all over again because that place will be a totally new destination vs. what they held traditionally in the acoustic market. Martin's been extremely consistent.

To put this more in perspective, check out used Martin prices for guitars made since 2003 and compare those to Guilds made in Corona and Tacoma. There's no contest on which has de-valued substantially more.

Again, I hope Guild succeeds in CT, and that they restore some faith in the company brand. But, anyone that's been paying attention doesn't view this as the same company that used to make the greatest workhorse dread (D25) on the planet... and they did so at a stunningly good value. These guitars have held up over 20, 30 & 40 years. They can't just re-create that in the 2- 3 years they will be lucky if FMIC affords them. That's the sad reality, and history bears this out.

My advice to Guild on the marketing front is to go after the top tier 12 string market if they are going for an upper end niche. If they really want to take the market by storm, I think the one way they might be able to do so is to capitalize on what many agreed was their forte years ago.