97 Starfire II - Sounds like someone put a blanket over my amp…

[Jjuran]

New to the forum. Thanks for letting me in!

New to me last month is a 97 Starfire II. It appears to have spent its whole life in the case. Gorgeous guitar and it plays great. Sounds fine acoustically but when I plug it in, yuk. Especially the neck pickup which is the one I would use the most on this guitar. It literally sounds like a blanket is covering the amp. Same amp, same cable, with my CE-100 Newark Street and the blanket is gone.

I’ve lowered the pickups as far as they can go, mild improvement, but still ‘muddy’, not clear and defined like the Capri. All pots work and are opened up, gets much worse as the tone pot rolls back. Not so with the Capri.

Rosewood bridge on the Starfire II, tune-o-matic on the Capri, but acoustically both guitars sound clear and ‘articulate.’ Could that cause the muddy sound? I’m not inclined to think so given the acoustic tone of the guitar. But this is my first guitar with a wooden bridge.

I’ve removed the HB-1s for ID and to inspect for damaged wires, etc… but I did not pull the controls, jack, and switch. Did a tone cap get improperly placed across the volume control lugs? The guitar sure sounds that way. I’m going to pull the whole harness and have a look. But before I spend the time, I wonder if somebody might have something that I’ve overlooked. Shame to put a tool to this guitar. I assume that this is the reason it stayed in its case for 26 years…

Thanks for reading!

 

[Jeff Haddad]

Welcome! I don’t have any suggestions to offer but I’m sure somebody here will soon. Hope you get it worked out, it’s a pretty guitar!

 

[GAD]

Those are SD1 pickups not HB1s but they shouldn’t be muddy.

 

[GAD]

You can hear SD1s in my Starfire V here:

1999 Guild Starfire V in Blue | GAD's Ramblings

Today’s review is this beautiful 1999 Guild Starfire V in blue. Starfire Vs from this time period are relatively uncommon, but finding one in blue like this is a real rarity. A long-time fellow Guild collector had this one in his clutches forever and finally caved into to my incessant requests...

www.gad.net

 

[Jjuran]

Thanks Jeff for the welcome and thanks GAD for the correction of the pickup ID. I’m a long way from doing anything with the pickups. I need to pull the harness. Maybe Saturday.

 

[lungimsam]

To my ears humbuckers put a blanket on an amp. I like single coils better. Are you used to humbuckers?

 

[LesB3]

I think there's probably a few things going on here. As GAD said, those SD-1's shouldn't sound muddy. I have the same pickups in a similar vintage SF-III...

I don't know if the wood bridge is stock for a SF-II but it will definitely have a "mellowing" effect on your tone. An easy experiment might be to temporaily swap the Capri's bridge on to the SF-II and see what it does to your sound.

And there's always the chance that your amp, already dialed in for the Capri, might need to be re-dialed in for the SF-III. Try that after swapping bridges and you might get better results?

 

[matsickma]

How much tone variation do you have when you adjust the tone and volume knob(s)? It should be significant. If not then the electronics are hosed up.

Try the volume knob first with the tone on 10. Then adjust the tone with the volume maxed out.

Also, do you have similar response out of the bridge electronics?

I don't blame you for not wanting to mess with the electronics. However if you were so inclined I would consider dropping the pickup selector switch and then unsoldering each pickup wire to bypass all the internal wires. Hook up a jack and go directly into your amp. That would be a clean connection. If you don't like that tone then you know the SD1's aren't for you. If you choose to do this I recommend you attach a wire to the selector knob so that you can easily re-fish the selector switch back in place when the experiment is complete.
M

 

[GAD]

I never assume the wiring is stock in a used guitar if it doesn’t work right. There are a lot of crazy people with soldering irons out there.

It’s also possible that a pot is just out of spec. I’ve told this story before but I have an Historic Les Paul that sounded terrible because the factory pots measured at around 350k. I didn’t figure that out until after I swapped the pickups and now with 525k pots it sounds amazing.

 

[teleharmonium]

I once had a bass rewired which came back sounding terrible, just murky and lifeless. It turned out to be due to my tech using sealed Japanese mini pots. They were the correct 500kohms, but they were high capacitance due to their design for some reason. We replaced them, and then everything was fine.

Not that you have the same issue, but there can be other causes in the wiring. I have a bunch of guitars with wooden bridges that are bright - that's generally true of older Guild electrics.

 

[Jjuran]

I never assume the wiring is stock in a used guitar if it doesn’t work right. There are a lot of crazy people with soldering irons out there.

It’s also possible that a pot is just out of spec. I’ve told this story before but I have an Historic Les Paul that sounded terrible because the factory pots measured at around 350k. I didn’t figure that out until after I swapped the pickups and now with 525k pots it sounds amazing.

That’s where I’m looking first. I’m thinking the volume pot values are wrong for these pickups. Not a mark on the guitar so I’m less inclined to suspect a botched attempt at a treble-bleed mod. Hopefully tomorrow I’ll have the whole harness out.
Thanks all for the ideas.

 

[swiveltung]

How much tone variation do you have when you adjust the tone and volume knob(s)? It should be significant. If not then the electronics are hosed up.

Try the volume knob first with the tone on 10. Then adjust the tone with the volume maxed out.

Also, do you have similar response out of the bridge electronics?

I don't blame you for not wanting to mess with the electronics. However if you were so inclined I would consider dropping the pickup selector switch and then unsoldering each pickup wire to bypass all the internal wires. Hook up a jack and go directly into your amp. That would be a clean connection. If you don't like that tone then you know the SD1's aren't for you. If you choose to do this I recommend you attach a wire to the selector knob so that you can easily re-fish the selector switch back in place when the experiment is complete.
M

This first ^

 

[Jjuran]

Thanks swiveltung. With volume wide open, tone controls just make it muddier and muddier as they are rolled back. And yeah, same for bridge.

The harness is out. No issues found at all with the assembly and no issues with the pot values. The 2 volume pots measure over 500k and the tone pots in the 490k neighborhood. The pickups measure as expected. Highest resistance from the bridge pickup. The wiring is good.

However, even before I removed anything, I found the pot control washers and hex nuts covered in oxidation. It got even heavier; large crumbs of oxidation chipping from the pots and star washers as I pulled them out. The pots are very heavily oxidized inside and out. The pot casings have no ID on them. I suspect they are a less expensive alternative to CTS that Fender decided to use. The metal material in and outside the pots is oxidizing, perhaps reacting to another element somewhere and I believe it’s the star washers used to keep the pot from loosening. Those are so oxidized, they need to be pried from the barrels.

Rather than spray De-Oxit all over everything and risk staining the guitar, new CTS control pots are on the way with mounting hardware. I’ll probably put a new Switchcraft toggle while I’m in there. Output jack is Switchcraft, and that is fine, but even those star washers are stuck together. So it will get new star washers during re-assembly.

 

[GAD]

Those pots don't look oxidized to the point that I would replace them. Is there something not shown in the pics that you're describing?

Also if you use DeOxit, make sure your using DeOxit-F and not DeOxit-D. DeOxit-F is for faders and has lubricant in it. DeOxit-D will make old pots seize because it breaks down the old lubricant inside the pots.

IF you replace the pots make sure you measure each one of those new CTS pots. CTS pots are not the magic solution a lot of people think they are. They haven't been made in the US in a very long time and the tolerances are usually pretty large.

 

[Jjuran]

Those pots don't look oxidized to the point that I would replace them. Is there something not shown in the pics that you're describing?

Also if you use DeOxit, make sure your using DeOxit-F and not DeOxit-D. DeOxit-F is for faders and has lubricant in it. DeOxit-D will make old pots seize because it breaks down the old lubricant inside the pots.

IF you replace the pots make sure you measure each one of those new CTS pots. CTS pots are not the magic solution a lot of people think they are. They haven't been made in the US in a very long time and the tolerances are usually pretty large.

Thanks GAD. I’ve been building and repairing amps for 25+ years. I’ve also fixed a few electric guitars along the way. I now know the wiring is factory correct and in tact. I also know the difference in De-Oxit products, and I know there are other potentiometers that would work just as well. But I trust the products I’ve worked with all that time and discarded many “magic solutions” hyped on the web too.

 

[GAD]

Thanks GAD. I’ve been building and repairing amps for 25+ years. I’ve also fixed a few electric guitars along the way. I now know the wiring is factory correct and in tact. I also know the difference in De-Oxit products, and I know there are other potentiometers that would work just as well. But I trust the products I’ve worked with all that time and discarded many “magic solutions” hyped on the web too.

Rockin’

My standard DeOxit disclaimer is from seeing a lot of pots get seized so I just assume people don’t know. Glad to know the guitar is in good hands.

Let us know what you figure out!

 

[bobouz]

I would still replace that bridge, just to help move things in the direction you’re after. Here’s my ‘97 Starfire III with SD-1s and a swapped out harp tailpiece. Not muddy with the stock aluminum bridge, which was retained:

 

[mavuser]

hi, something is definitely not right.

those pickups are holy grail

good luck!

 

[LesB3]

I would still replace that bridge, just to help move things in the direction you’re after. Here’s my ‘97 Starfire III with SD-1s and a swapped out harp tailpiece. Not muddy with the stock aluminum bridge, which was retained:

Agree, I think this is the main issue. Wooden bridges shouldn't be on anything other than a jazz guitar, and even then only if you're looking for the blanket over the amp sound...

 

[lungimsam]

Here’s another similar-ish complaint, though the vehicle is slightly different:

Think I may have to ditch my Starfire IV

I have only had it a short time, gorgeous guitar but I wish I could do a pick up swap! They are just to dark!

letstalkguild.com