2012 NS Starfire IV vs 2022 NS Starfire VI

[GGJaguar]

For this comparison, I’m going against convention and using SF-4 and SF-6 to abbreviate because the Roman numerals could look confusing (IV, VI).



At first glance this may seem like an apples-to-apples comparison, but it’s really not. Obviously, the SF-4 has a laminated sapele body with a harp tail and the SF-6 has a laminated maple body with a Guildsby. Below the skin, the SF-4 has a solid center block that has been routed for the pickups and wiring. The SF-6 has the more recent style construction with two large parallel braces connecting the top and back that run from the neck to the tail block. There is a solid block of wood that sits under the bridge and, if it had one, the stop bar. Further, the SF-4 has a floating bridge while the SF-6 bridge is pinned to the top.

The guitars weigh about the same – 7.7 lb (3.5 kg) for the SF-4 vs 7.6 lb (3.4 kg) for the SF-6. I’d say that the weight lost from less wood in the center section was made up by the Guildsby on the SF-6. And for something completely different, the SF-4 has a Canadian-made TKL case (as do all early Newark Street models) while the SF-6 has the current Chinese-made case. The TKL case is nicer.

With CNC being used by the Korean factory to cut the necks, I would have thought the neck profiles would be the same. They are not, as shown in the chart below. The SF-6 neck is a little thicker in profile with more noticeable “shoulders” making it more of a shallow D-shape while the SF-4 neck is more of a C-shape with smaller “shoulders”. Remember, these guitar were made 10 years apart so more recent SF-4s may be different.



Having less wood in the center section means the acoustic voice of the SF-6 is louder with more clarity compared to the SF-4. Plugged in, the SF-6 has noticeably more midrange than the SF-4. That was a surprise. I thought the SF-6 was a “bright” sounding guitar, but compared to the SF-4 it sounds like it’s loaded with PAFs. The sound may be thicker, but it’s still on the brighter side of the humbucker spectrum. The SF-4 isn’t brighter than the SF-6, but it has more clarity because it doesn’t have as much midrange, thus effectively making it seem brighter.

The LB-1s sound better to me in solid body guitars (S-200 Tbird) and true semi-hollow guitars (pre-2018 Starfire IV and V). I don’t like them as much in fully hollow models like the Starfire III or discontinued CE-100D. The Starfire 6 with its newer style of semi-hollow construction seems to straddle the two. If you like the way P-90s growl, you’ll love the SF-6. Overall, I prefer the sound of the SF-4 and the neck shape of the SF-6.

 

[BradHK]

Great comparison. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Walter Broes]

Having less wood in the center section means the acoustic voice of the SF-6 is louder with more clarity compared to the SF-4. Plugged in, the SF-6 has noticeably more midrange than the SF-4. That was a surprise. I thought the SF-6 was a “bright” sounding guitar, but compared to the SF-4 it sounds like it’s loaded with PAFs. The sound may be thicker, but it’s still on the brighter side of the humbucker spectrum. The SF-4 isn’t brighter than the SF-6, but it has more clarity because it doesn’t have as much midrange, thus effectively making it seem brighter.

interesting observations.

I wouldn't underestimate the effect of the master volume in the SFVI's electronics. That extra potentiometer is going to eat some treble and load down the pickups more than the SFIV's simpler circuit.

As for necks, there has to be more handshaping involved than we tend to think. I have two NS X175's and have owned and sold a third in the past, and the neck profiles (and neck sets!) are different on all three.

 

[GGJaguar]

Good points, Walter!

 

[captainvideo]

I hate to kick up an old thread so I apologize in advance if that's not cool here.
But now that I have a newer Starfire V I'm wondering about it's block. Has anyone done a closer comparison of two of the same models without the added electronics?

Also hello to @Walter Broes

Fun seeing your name here. It's Bill from the old Gretsch forum. We met briefly at a Greenbay Rockabilly event when I was playing bass with the Jimmy and Gabrielle's band.

 

[Walter Broes]

Ah yes, Bill P! And here we are all those years later, still being extremely nerdy about guitars!

 

[Guilblues]

I hate to kick up an old thread so I apologize in advance if that's not cool here.
But now that I have a newer Starfire V I'm wondering about it's block. Has anyone done a closer comparison of two of the same models without the added electronics?

Also hello to @Walter Broes

Fun seeing your name here. It's Bill from the old Gretsch forum. We met briefly at a Greenbay Rockabilly event when I was playing bass with the Jimmy and Gabrielle's band.

Well, I am glad you did. I had not seen this thread yet and for the last couple of months my interest on anything about the NS line has sparked considerably. This is a very nice and useful comparison to read.

 

[Guilblues]

For this comparison, I’m going against convention and using SF-4 and SF-6 to abbreviate because the Roman numerals could look confusing (IV, VI).



At first glance this may seem like an apples-to-apples comparison, but it’s really not. Obviously, the SF-4 has a laminated sapele body with a harp tail and the SF-6 has a laminated maple body with a Guildsby. Below the skin, the SF-4 has a solid center block that has been routed for the pickups and wiring. The SF-6 has the more recent style construction with two large parallel braces connecting the top and back that run from the neck to the tail block. There is a solid block of wood that sits under the bridge and, if it had one, the stop bar. Further, the SF-4 has a floating bridge while the SF-6 bridge is pinned to the top.

The guitars weigh about the same – 7.7 lb (3.5 kg) for the SF-4 vs 7.6 lb (3.4 kg) for the SF-6. I’d say that the weight lost from less wood in the center section was made up by the Guildsby on the SF-6. And for something completely different, the SF-4 has a Canadian-made TKL case (as do all early Newark Street models) while the SF-6 has the current Chinese-made case. The TKL case is nicer.

With CNC being used by the Korean factory to cut the necks, I would have thought the neck profiles would be the same. They are not, as shown in the chart below. The SF-6 neck is a little thicker in profile with more noticeable “shoulders” making it more of a shallow D-shape while the SF-4 neck is more of a C-shape with smaller “shoulders”. Remember, these guitar were made 10 years apart so more recent SF-4s may be different.



Having less wood in the center section means the acoustic voice of the SF-6 is louder with more clarity compared to the SF-4. Plugged in, the SF-6 has noticeably more midrange than the SF-4. That was a surprise. I thought the SF-6 was a “bright” sounding guitar, but compared to the SF-4 it sounds like it’s loaded with PAFs. The sound may be thicker, but it’s still on the brighter side of the humbucker spectrum. The SF-4 isn’t brighter than the SF-6, but it has more clarity because it doesn’t have as much midrange, thus effectively making it seem brighter.

The LB-1s sound better to me in solid body guitars (S-200 Tbird) and true semi-hollow guitars (pre-2018 Starfire IV and V). I don’t like them as much in fully hollow models like the Starfire III or discontinued CE-100D. The Starfire 6 with its newer style of semi-hollow construction seems to straddle the two. If you like the way P-90s growl, you’ll love the SF-6. Overall, I prefer the sound of the SF-4 and the neck shape of the SF-6.

Very nice comparison! Thanks for that.

Quite interesting indeed when compared to my experience I have had with SF NS guitars so far. Very recently I got my hands on yet another SFIV NS. This time I was able to take it apart and look inside. I got together with somebody who had one, who was in need of a small repair/set up. I did it for him and got the chance to get to know the guitar a little more deeply. This is the 3rd NS I have had time with. It was a 2015 SFIV.

I took detailed measurements for the neck for later reference when looking for my own NS, which will definitely happen. Just waiting for the right one.

Here are the measurements I took using a digital caliper:

Nut: 42.7mm
Width 1st: 44mm
Width 5th: 47.5mm
Width 12th: 53mm
Width 22nd: 58.3mm
Depth 1st: 22.5mm
Depth at 12th: 24mm

The center block on this one wasn't fully solid, like in most or many 335s where you only have a small round hole to fit the pickup cable through. It actually had a large gap or tunnel on the knob side linking the 2 pickup cavities. Not very different from the I DC here:



Was your 2012 also like that or fully solid like a 335? I have not opened my DeArmond for a while, but I'm pretty sure it is solid.

The choice of going with the 2 parallel braces after 2018 is an interesting one and something I didn't know. Do you notice any more feedback because of that? I will probably search for a pre-2018.

About the tone, I'm with Walter that the master volume is probably to blame. Unless it has a treble bleed. I played a SFV NS only briefly, and didn't compare. But the 2 SFIV NS I spent quality time with were bright, specially compared to your usual PAF. I would have thought Guild would have had a treble bleed in there, like Gretsch has been doing. Maybe they wanted to stick as close as possible to vintage specs.

 

[captainvideo]

So curiosity got the best of me last night and I took the neck pickup off and got a look under, and mine has the more spacious looking block up front with just the two parallel bars showing. I probably should have taken the bridge pickup off and looked down there too but I'm assuming its like the ones mentioned above by @GGJaguar and has some sort of solid block under the bridge and or tailpiece area. It's too heavy to not. According to the serial number mine is from 2023.

This is my only Guild in the house but I have a Gibson 330 that weighs in at 6.9 lbs a 335 that weighs in at 7.8lbs and a Riviera Elitist at 8.2lbs. This Starfire V is 7.5 lbs.

I can simulate my stage set up in my rehearsal space and I'm not getting the sort of feedback associated with the Gibson 330 from the Starfire.

In doing this recent purchase I looked for something under 8lbs as to I did I find a few Starfire Vs in the 8lb plus range. I wonder if those were just older models now. Not knowing a thing about this I was happy with a 7.5lbs guitar. If this is my only guitar on a 3 set night my back is happy too. The other trait I was searching for while on the market was a rosewood board that actually looked like dark rosewood. I have an Epiphone with Indian Laurel and although I'm in the camp of believing it really doesn't make any sonic difference I just like the look of a darker rosewood board, which tends to be harder to find on import guitars today.

I would be curious to see some center blocks on the actual vintage Starfire IV and Vs. I know the Gibson ES 335,345,355 block evolved over time and wasn't always the same. But the Gibson guys seem to get OCD about neck tenons.

 

[Guilblues]

So curiosity got the best of me last night and I took the neck pickup off and got a look under, and mine has the more spacious looking block up front with just the two parallel bars showing. I probably should have taken the bridge pickup off and looked down there too but I'm assuming its like the ones mentioned above by @GGJaguar and has some sort of solid block under the bridge and or tailpiece area. It's too heavy to not. According to the serial number mine is from 2023.

This is my only Guild in the house but I have a Gibson 330 that weighs in at 6.9 lbs a 335 that weighs in at 7.8lbs and a Riviera Elitist at 8.2lbs. This Starfire V is 7.5 lbs.

I can simulate my stage set up in my rehearsal space and I'm not getting the sort of feedback associated with the Gibson 330 from the Starfire.

In doing this recent purchase I looked for something under 8lbs as to I did I find a few Starfire Vs in the 8lb plus range. I wonder if those were just older models now. Not knowing a thing about this I was happy with a 7.5lbs guitar. If this is my only guitar on a 3 set night my back is happy too. The other trait I was searching for while on the market was a rosewood board that actually looked like dark rosewood. I have an Epiphone with Indian Laurel and although I'm in the camp of believing it really doesn't make any sonic difference I just like the look of a darker rosewood board, which tends to be harder to find on import guitars today.

I would be curious to see some center blocks on the actual vintage Starfire IV and Vs. I know the Gibson ES 335,345,355 block evolved over time and wasn't always the same. But the Gibson guys seem to get OCD about neck tenons.

Very nice guitar! 7.5lbs for a semi-hollow with a bigsby is very light weight! For a semi-hollow without a bigsby that is already great. As Jaguar says, the more airy "center block" has to be the reason. But I wasn't expecting it would feed back like a 330. Casinos and 330s are very feedback prone in my experience. Sometimes not better than a 175. I just wondered if compared to a full center block pre-2018 SF, the newer parallel brace models would show slight more feedback. But if you have a 335, that's also a good comparison.

 

[captainvideo]

Very nice guitar! 7.5lbs for a semi-hollow with a bigsby is very light weight! For a semi-hollow without a bigsby that is already great. As Jaguar says, the more airy "center block" has to be the reason. But I wasn't expecting it would feed back like a 330. Casinos and 330s are very feedback prone in my experience. Sometimes not better than a 175. I just wondered if compared to a full center block pre-2018 SF, the newer parallel brace models would show slight more feedback. But if you have a 335, that's also a good comparison.

I'm very curious to compare a pre 2018 as well.

 

[captainvideo]

Here's a shot of the bridge pickup pulled up looking back towards the end of the guitar.
It's a solid wall right at the back of the pickup. Not sure how far it goes back into the body.
So I wouldn't call these total "parallel tone" bar construction like you'd find on a mid 60s double cut Gretsch. There is some "semi hollow" aspects to this build.

 

[Guilblues]

Here's a shot of the bridge pickup pulled up looking back towards the end of the guitar.
It's a solid wall right at the back of the pickup. Not sure how far it goes back into the body.
So I wouldn't call these total "parallel tone" bar construction like you'd find on a mid 60s double cut Gretsch. There is some "semi hollow" aspects to this build.

It would be interesting to know what motivated the change in the 2018 models. Was it about weight, economics or what? Would be nice to know.

 

[BradHK]

It would be interesting to know what motivated the change in the 2018 models. Was it about weight, economics or what? Would be nice to know.

Given that I have not heard of any “issues” with the previous version, my guess is that it was driven by cost. Either easier to produce, easier to assemble, etc.. but all effecting the cost of supplies, tooling and labor.

 

[captainvideo]

Over the weekend I did some Google image searches and tried to get some decent photos of what the neck pockets looked like on the late 60s Starfire IV and Vs. From what I could see the block was pretty thick on the originals with just a hole for the neck pickup wire.

So even the pre 2018 models weren't entirely accurate, but I do believe the Newark series was never actually marketed as true reissue.

I'm VERY tempted to track down a pre 2018 model but also probably thinking the sonic difference is probably negligible for the effort I would have to extend to do this comparison. I think I'm going to save up and buy a late 60s IV or V. Provided I can get along with the thinner nut.

Everyone seems to want lighter guitars these days. Maybe Guild wasn't cutting costs but making a more desirable/player friendly guitar?

 

[Walter Broes]

I think I'm going to save up and buy a late 60s IV or V.

Compared to 60's semihollow Gibsons, Starfires are still a bargain, especially if you don't mind some cosmetic damage/wear.

I had a '64 SF IV for a while - didn't really fit my usual style of music, but I still regret not having kept it - great guitar with bags of character. And I kind of hate to say it because the Korean guitars are kind of fun, nice guitars, but that '64 I had was SO much better.

 

[Guilblues]

Over the weekend I did some Google image searches and tried to get some decent photos of what the neck pockets looked like on the late 60s Starfire IV and Vs. From what I could see the block was pretty thick on the originals with just a hole for the neck pickup wire.

So even the pre 2018 models weren't entirely accurate, but I do believe the Newark series was never actually marketed as true reissue.

I'm VERY tempted to track down a pre 2018 model but also probably thinking the sonic difference is probably negligible for the effort I would have to extend to do this comparison. I think I'm going to save up and buy a late 60s IV or V. Provided I can get along with the thinner nut.

Everyone seems to want lighter guitars these days. Maybe Guild wasn't cutting costs but making a more desirable/player friendly guitar?

I've been looking now for a looooong time for a vintage Starfire. One thing which puts me off, apart from the thin necks, is that it's really rare to see one in great condition. It either means they are just great guitars and most have been played to an inch of its life, or I don't know. Specially binding rot seems to be a thing with them.

Not so though with the Fender era ones. Which is why at this point, if I get a US made SF it would be a 90s or early 2000s. Not only it seems the necks are ok with some exceptions. But they are normally in much better condition. I have seen some really trashy 60s, 70s and 80s SF, which even though were selling for 1.500 or less, I didn't buy. Just too beaten up. I mean, there is good looking patina and then there is just bad shape or beaten up.

You also often see body only for sale, for quite cheap, which you will never really do with a 335. I have seen at least 3 or 4 by now.

So for me, a nice mid 90s or early 2000s SFIV with at least 1.69 or 1 11/16 nut and a good price is what would most likely make me open my wallet. I regret so much not having bought one which was offered me for 1.400. After the fact, everybody is wiser right.

 

[Guilblues]

Given that I have not heard of any “issues” with the previous version, my guess is that it was driven by cost. Either easier to produce, easier to assemble, etc.. but all effecting the cost of supplies, tooling and labor.

It makes sense, since the pre 2018s are not heavy guitars by any means.

 

[captainvideo]

Compared to 60's semihollow Gibsons, Starfires are still a bargain, especially if you don't mind some cosmetic damage/wear.

I had a '64 SF IV for a while - didn't really fit my usual style of music, but I still regret not having kept it - great guitar with bags of character. And I kind of hate to say it because the Korean guitars are kind of fun, nice guitars, but that '64 I had was SO much better.

I hear what you're saying about the price on those. I'm seeing some for less than new Gibsons!

 

[captainvideo]

I've been looking now for a looooong time for a vintage Starfire. One thing which puts me off, apart from the thin necks, is that it's really rare to see one in great condition. It either means they are just great guitars and most have been played to an inch of its life, or I don't know. Specially binding rot seems to be a thing with them.

Not so though with the Fender era ones. Which is why at this point, if I get a US made SF it would be a 90s or early 2000s. Not only it seems the necks are ok with some exceptions. But they are normally in much better condition. I have seen some really trashy 60s, 70s and 80s SF, which even though were selling for 1.500 or less, I didn't buy. Just too beaten up. I mean, there is good looking patina and then there is just bad shape or beaten up.

You also often see body only for sale, for quite cheap, which you will never really do with a 335. I have seen at least 3 or 4 by now.

So for me, a nice mid 90s or early 2000s SFIV with at least 1.69 or 1 11/16 nut and a good price is what would most likely make me open my wallet. I regret so much not having bought one which was offered me for 1.400. After the fact, everybody is wiser right.

I've just started looking so you're WAY ahead of me. There are some decent ones listed on Reverb right now but I would have trouble buying any vintage guitar sight unseen. This is basically why I went with a Newark St. V for now.

I've had a few mid 60s Gretsch guitars and they all suffered the binding rot issues. I really could careless about the body binding but the neck binding iffy is a major concern for me.

When did they switch over to the 1.65 nut width on the Starfires? I'd want a IV or V that had the later 60s neck join and I'm afraid most of those have the thinner necks. But then again Buddy Guy appeared to have no issues with those guitars.