2000 Guild/Benedetto Artist Award

[Woolley]

Hi,
Does anyone have any experience with these Westerly models? Playability, sound? Ive read the long scale makes them difficult to play.

 

[GAD]

Hi,
Does anyone have any experience with these Westerly models? Playability, sound? Ive read the long scale makes them difficult to play.

I don't have one, but I have an Earlier AA and a Benedetto X700 and have done a fair bit of research on the Benedettos for a forthcoming write-up. My non-Benedetto X700 is 24 3/4" and my Benedetto X700 is 25 9/16".

The "long scale" that people complain about seems to be the fact that they're 25 9/16" vs 25 5/8" which is just a difference of 1/16" over the distance of the nut to the bridge. I think people just like something to complain about. Is the string tension higher? Yes, but the difference is ridiculously small. Does that mean a master jazz player can't feel the difference? It doesn't matter what I think if the player thinks so.

If people are complaining about 25 9/16" (or 25 5/8") vs 24 3/4", then that's a bit more believable, but that's the difference between a Strat and a Les Paul. I'm lucky enough to have a lot of guitars and I can switch between them without even thinking about it, but that's mostly because I also have Super Strats and Les Pauls.

FWIW Bob Benedetto used 25 9/16" because that's what Guild used historically, so this is not a Benedetto thing.

 

[Woolley]

Thanks for the quick response. To be fair I only read a couple people's opinion on the scale. But I havent read much about the overall impression these early models make. Ive read a bit about the Johnny Smiths. To be honest, Im thinking it probably wouldnt be a problem for me. I dont even know what the scale of my Gretsch archtop was but it wasnt set up to be bending strings, thats for sure.

 

[banjomike]

I own a 1990 Artist Award, and the long scale feels the same as playing a Gibson L-5 or a Gibson Advanced Jumbo.
The long scale does feel stiffer than the short scale, but it has advantages I like a lot; more room between frets on the high register, and the higher string tension adds acoustic volume and presence to the overall tone, which can actually sound quite mellow. Deeper bass, and a clearer top end.

I played a Martin D-28 for decades, so long scale guitars all feel fine for me, as I prefer using medium-gauge strings.

I purchased the AA last fall, and it's been the guitar I've played most often ever since. They're really nice all-round guitars that sound great acoustically or plugged in.
regards,
banjomike

 

[chazmo]

Hi,
Does anyone have any experience with these Westerly models? Playability, sound? Ive read the long scale makes them difficult to play.

By the way, welcome to LTG, Woolley! Keep us posted with your choices.

 

[Woolley]

Thanks banjomike for the detailed response. Going to sit with my Starfire for now. Damn nice guitars are getting expensive.

 

[Cougar]

I purchased the AA last fall, and it's been the guitar I've played most often ever since.

And welcome to LTG to you, too, banjomike! BTW, would you happen to be the same banjomike I "met" some time ago who used to work at Gibson in Bozeman and now resides in Idaho?

 

[banjomike]

And welcome to LTG to you, too, banjomike! BTW, would you happen to be the same banjomike I "met" some time ago who used to work at Gibson in Bozeman and now resides in Idaho?

Yup.
I'm an Idaho native, and it seems I always end up back here, but I worked for Gibson twice in Bozeman, 10 years apart. The first time was in 1989-90, and the second was 2001 to 2003. In between, I did quite a lot of sub-contract work for them independently from Idaho, and after I left the second time, this work continued off and on up to 2010.

I got the job the first time mostly because I knew Steve Carlson from before his association with the Gibson Co. I first met Steve when he owned a little music store in Bozeman, which is only 200 miles from my home.
Steve hired me mostly because I had owned a 1939 Gibson Advanced Jumbo. It was a model that was only made for a few years in the 1930s, and became legendary as a strong bluegrass guitar, but had never been reproduced.
The AJ was intended to be revived as a showpiece for the new Montana factory's build quality, but no one at the factory had actually seen one because they're so scarce and hard to come by.
Only Ren Ferguson and I knew anything about them. I helped Ren, who made the prototypes, and did all the finish work on them.

Ren and I are old friends. After he left Gibson and went to Fender, who sent him to Guild, he mentioned several times the build quality at Guild was excellent, but the old factory- built in the 1800s- was so old it caused one problem after another. Being on the other side of the continent from Fender management didn't help either.
So Ren was glad when Fender moved Guild closer to the center of the Fender operations. After I bought my Artist Award, he said he had made a few of them in Fender's custom shop during the transition to the west coast. I would like to own one of his someday, if I can ever find one.
I never thought Ren would stay with Guild for a long time; he loves Montana like I love Idaho, so I figured he would go back eventually.

The new AJ corrected some minor flaws in the design of the originals, but are very accurate reproductions. I own one out of the first batch made, and it's still my favorite guitar, an early 1990. Now, with 30 years of playing on it, it has matured very nicely. My old guitar went to Gary Burnette, who collects them, and to tell the truth, I like my 'new' one better and don't miss it.
They're still being made in limited numbers every year.

I liked the job both times I worked there, but I'm not very well-built for doing repetitive line work. I had to quit both times due to repetitive injuries of my hand and shoulder. This is a real problem in the industry; no one ever knows when they begin if it will strike them or not.

When did we meet?

 

[Cougar]

When did we meet?

Over at citydata, Idaho forum. I kept drifting over to the C-D politics board and getting banned because the mods there are, like, real Nazis. I guess I've had a few different handles there, heh. Welcome again to this board. No politics allowed, haha.

 

[banjomike]

Over at citydata, Idaho forum. I keep drifting over to the C-D politics board and getting banned because the mods there are, like, real Nazis. I guess I've had a few different handles there, heh. Welcome again to this board. No politics allowed, haha.

Ah...!
Gibson gets visitors, and I was seldom introduced to anyone when I was working.

Yup. I agree with your thoughts about city data. The Idaho forum is the only reason I'm still there. When I first joined, I learned I was the only native on that forum, and very few of the members actually knew much about the state as a whole.
That's changed over the years, so I don't post to it now as often as I once did.

I don't see much sense in talking politics with anyone on the net anymore; to me, it's like trying to teach a pig how to whistle. It wears you out and irritates the pig. I think it's now time to just step back and let things take their course for a while.

I would much rather talk to others about good guitars and banjos any day.

I've always liked Guild guitars, and these days, I think the brand's potential as collectables is being overlooked. Since I own a buttload of Gibsons, I'm now interested in finding some Guilds to replace the guitars I sell. I'm a player more than a collector, but I really like owning guitars that are all distinctly different from each other.

 

[GGJaguar]

I really like owning guitars that are all distinctly different from each other.

That should be pretty easy to do with Guilds.

 

[chazmo]

Ah...!
Gibson gets visitors, and I was seldom introduced to anyone when I was working.

Yup. I agree with your thoughts about city data. The Idaho forum is the only reason I'm still there. When I first joined, I learned I was the only native on that forum, and very few of the members actually knew much about the state as a whole.
That's changed over the years, so I don't post to it now as often as I once did.

I don't see much sense in talking politics with anyone on the net anymore; to me, it's like trying to teach a pig how to whistle. It wears you out and irritates the pig. I think it's now time to just step back and let things take their course for a while.

I would much rather talk to others about good guitars and banjos any day.

I've always liked Guild guitars, and these days, I think the brand's potential as collectables is being overlooked. Since I own a buttload of Gibsons, I'm now interested in finding some Guilds to replace the guitars I sell. I'm a player more than a collector, but I really like owning guitars that are all distinctly different from each other.

What kind of work did you do for Gibson? Just curious. And, again, welcome to LTG!!

Yeah, we moderators try to keep things pretty clean around here, Mike. Politics is right out. Banjos might be a close second! I'm just kidding about the banjos, Mike. But do expect a good-hearted ribbing about that.

 

[banjomike]

What kind of work did you do for Gibson? Just curious. And, again, welcome to LTG!!

Yeah, we moderators try to keep things pretty clean around here, Mike. Politics is right out. Banjos might be a close second! I'm just kidding about the banjos, Mike. But do expect a good-hearted ribbing about that.

Thanks for the welcome!
Banjo players are hard to insult. Most of the banjo jokes begin with us telling them first.
What's the note a banjo makes when you throw it out of an airplane over an Army base?
Answer:
A flat Major.
(A Jr. High banjo kid told me that one.)

I usually did finish work at Gibson; most of the time, I did the color spraying, painting the sunbursts and the various body colors. At times, though, I did setup work, especially on the few L-7 arcbtops that left the shop, and also did fretboard cleanup, which included dressing the fret ends, scraping the binding down on the edges and cleaning the board.
Once in finish, always in finish. It's the area of the shop that always demands a very careful touch and a ton of close attention. the folks who work in that department were all tested for 'the touch' except for me; I was hired on to be the department supervisor, but I was too green to do a good job as a supervisor, so I swapped jobs with the color sprayer, who had a year's more experience.

Back in '89, the only workers in the factory that had lutheriey experience had worked for Flatiron Mandolins, the first music factory in Bozeman. Gibson bought Flatiron, then decided Bozeman would be the best location for a new dedicated acoustic factory.

 

[chazmo]

Mike, thanks for the details. Sounds like you got your hands (very) dirty in the paint shop! Really cool history, Mike!

 

[banjomike]

Mike, thanks for the details. Sounds like you got your hands (very) dirty in the paint shop! Really cool history, Mike!

Thanks.
You're right about it being a dirty job!
I've always been a paint slinger, so I know how to limit the dirt, but when I worked the color booth, I always wore a Tyvek bunny suit. Everyone in finish wears disposable gloves, and in the booth, I would change gloves after working on 2 guitars.

The booth was like working in a hurricane; there are massive intake fans shooting air from the back, with other massive exhaust fans pulling the overspray out at the front. The noise was more troublesome than the overspray, so I chose to use a full over-the-head fresh air mask over a respirator, as it cut down the noise substantially.
The mask was great when it was pressurized, but I had to peel it off when it wasn't as I would run out of air in it pretty quickly. And when I wore it, I always wore a ball cap with a corduroy bill, which would grab the mask and turn it when I turned my head. Otherwise, I would be looking at the inside of the mask instead of the guitar too much.

The second time I worked there, I worked in a brand new booth that had less noise and better air circulation that came from 3 sides. This eliminated the need for a respirator, and the rig was a lot quieter.

The new booth came after the old one caught fire in the exhaust tunnel from spontaneous combustion. Lacquer dust had built up inside the tunnel walls. The new booth was designed to eliminate that problem.

Finish is interesting. Most folks believe the woods that are used in fine guitars is what makes them expensive, but that's not so; it's the labor that costs the company the most. And 60% of the labor in building a guitar is in its finish.
To get a really high-polish lacquered finish on a guitar that is only 10mm thick but looks as deep as a 40 ft. well demands a lot of very careful hand labor that's repeated over and over, as each thin coat is built up then slowly polished away.
It's something no robot yet can accomplish as well as a human can. And it's so delicately done that small mistakes are very easy to make. It takes even more skill correcting those mistakes. And there aren't any shortcuts.

Gibson pioneered the use of sprayed colored lacquers guitars. Gibson had always colored their products from the first, and the sunburst was a Gibson invention that mimicked the extreme age of fine old violins. Before the spray gun, the guitars were all colored using hand-rubbed alcohol-based dyes to make the sunbursts. Then the clear coats were also applied by hand, using French-polished shellac.

Lacquer was far more durable, and when colored with transparent dyes, could actually look very much like it had been colored by hand. It just took more skill to use a spray gun than it took to use a wad of cheesecloth to apply.
I practiced on guitar tops that had flaws in the wood to learn how to make a sunburst like the old masters at Kalamazoo had done it. I went in an hour early and left an hour late, making my practice on my own time, but when I went into the booth, it paid off.

At $3,000, a Gibson had to look perfect, and it had to look distinctly Gibson. If a guitar hanging on the wall of a shop doesn't look good, it really doesn't matter how good it sounds, because it's much less likely to come off the wall and get tried out. That's why there's so much labor involved in the finish department.

It was a real challenge for me at first, and some of the most demanding work I've ever done. But it's pretty cool when I see a guitar I colored on TV or being used onstage. The color sprayers are really a small bunch. After a while, they all develop their own unique look to their work, so I can still spot mine even though I'm long gone.

 

[chazmo]

Mike, I have to say that taking that kind of pride and joy in your work is a very refreshing thing to hear about. I've been in high-tech (software) my whole career (almost 40 years now!) and one thing that has always bugged me is that I can't point at something and say "Look, I did that!!!" I take my joy in the creation itself -- that it's sound, clean, and "beautiful" (in it's own way).

Thanks for sharing that. It made my day!

 

[HeyMikey]

Thanks.
You're right about it being a dirty job!
I've always been a paint slinger, so I know how to limit the dirt, but when I worked the color booth, I always wore a Tyvek bunny suit. Everyone in finish wears disposable gloves, and in the booth, I would change gloves after working on 2 guitars.

The booth was like working in a hurricane; there are massive intake fans shooting air from the back, with other massive exhaust fans pulling the overspray out at the front. The noise was more troublesome than the overspray, so I chose to use a full over-the-head fresh air mask over a respirator, as it cut down the noise substantially.
The mask was great when it was pressurized, but I had to peel it off when it wasn't as I would run out of air in it pretty quickly. And when I wore it, I always wore a ball cap with a corduroy bill, which would grab the mask and turn it when I turned my head. Otherwise, I would be looking at the inside of the mask instead of the guitar too much.

The second time I worked there, I worked in a brand new booth that had less noise and better air circulation that came from 3 sides. This eliminated the need for a respirator, and the rig was a lot quieter.

The new booth came after the old one caught fire in the exhaust tunnel from spontaneous combustion. Lacquer dust had built up inside the tunnel walls. The new booth was designed to eliminate that problem.

Finish is interesting. Most folks believe the woods that are used in fine guitars is what makes them expensive, but that's not so; it's the labor that costs the company the most. And 60% of the labor in building a guitar is in its finish.
To get a really high-polish lacquered finish on a guitar that is only 10mm thick but looks as deep as a 40 ft. well demands a lot of very careful hand labor that's repeated over and over, as each thin coat is built up then slowly polished away.
It's something no robot yet can accomplish as well as a human can. And it's so delicately done that small mistakes are very easy to make. It takes even more skill correcting those mistakes. And there aren't any shortcuts.

Gibson pioneered the use of sprayed colored lacquers guitars. Gibson had always colored their products from the first, and the sunburst was a Gibson invention that mimicked the extreme age of fine old violins. Before the spray gun, the guitars were all colored using hand-rubbed alcohol-based dyes to make the sunbursts. Then the clear coats were also applied by hand, using French-polished shellac.

Lacquer was far more durable, and when colored with transparent dyes, could actually look very much like it had been colored by hand. It just took more skill to use a spray gun than it took to use a wad of cheesecloth to apply.
I practiced on guitar tops that had flaws in the wood to learn how to make a sunburst like the old masters at Kalamazoo had done it. I went in an hour early and left an hour late, making my practice on my own time, but when I went into the booth, it paid off.

At $3,000, a Gibson had to look perfect, and it had to look distinctly Gibson. If a guitar hanging on the wall of a shop doesn't look good, it really doesn't matter how good it sounds, because it's much less likely to come off the wall and get tried out. That's why there's so much labor involved in the finish department.

It was a real challenge for me at first, and some of the most demanding work I've ever done. But it's pretty cool when I see a guitar I colored on TV or being used onstage. The color sprayers are really a small bunch. After a while, they all develop their own unique look to their work, so I can still spot mine even though I'm long gone.

Great insight banjomike! Now that is true craftsmanship and something I appreciate very much. Keep them coming please. Pics are welcome as well.

I guess that’s why I much prefer surrounding myself with older things from a time when more was done by a skilled hand. My grandfather was a painter, who specialized in decorative painting in the early 1900’s. He would paint walls or molding to mimic wood grain, since nice wood was unaffordable for many at the time.

I could spend all day admiring the craftsmanship from everyday items in a antique store or flea market, but get physically sick to my stomach stepping inside the walls of an Ikea showroom.

 

[chazmo]

. . .

I could spend all day admiring the craftsmanship from everyday items in a antique store or flea market, but get physically sick to my stomach stepping inside the walls of an Ikea showroom.

Dude, stay away from the Swedish meatballs!

 

[banjomike]

Great insight banjomike! Now that is true craftsmanship and something I appreciate very much. Keep them coming please. Pics are welcome as well.

I guess that’s why I much prefer surrounding myself with older things from a time when more was done by a skilled hand. My grandfather was a painter, who specialized in decorative painting in the early 1900’s. He would paint walls or molding to mimic wood grain, since nice wood was unaffordable for many at the time.

I could spend all day admiring the craftsmanship from everyday items in a antique store or flea market, but get physically sick to my stomach stepping inside the walls of an Ikea showroom.

Thanks to all of you for your kind comments!
I don't have much opportunity to talk about this stuff with all my personal friends, as we've all known each other for so long we all know our differences and preferences when it comes to our instruments.
It's nice to talk to strangers I don't know who may have much different ideas these days. Especially the younger players.

For sure, folks these days seem to admire hand craftsmanship more than they did when I was young, but in my observation, I don't think a completely hand-made guitar made by one person is automatically superior to a factory-made guitar.

When one person makes an instrument, that person always has some abilities that are greater than the other abilities. In a factory, there are people who get very good at making one or two things that go into a guitar.

So there are things that can be said pro and con about hand craftsmanship. When one person does it all, I've found their guitars often have some really strengths and some real weaknesses in them.

One of the greatest strengths a single luthier can have is repeatability.
A good luthier who makes consistently equal quality in his products is more rare than a good factory guitar, where every part of the guitar is made by good specialists who all cooperate with each other and hold to the same standard of quality.

But a single luthier can often be the best choice for a player who has some unique or radical desires he wants in his instrument. A factory has a harder time meeting those needs.

So it's not always true that hand crafted guitars are always superior. They all work inside their own limits of their knowledge and their physical abilities. That's as true inside a factory as it is in a shop with a single workbench.

That's the reason why some handmade guitars are so gob-stopping expensive. The guy who made that guitar always had to make a living while he was hard at work, and it is all hard, slow physical work, so the individual can only make a few guitars. A few has to be economically profitable for him. He has to learn how to work fast perfectly in everything. That's a tall order for anyone.

It's an interesting profession, for sure. Chasing perfection tends to lead into obsession for a lot of the guys I know who are in it.
Not all of them, though; I know some excellent hand makers who are quite happy in their lives and are content in their product's quality.
If one of their instruments is super-expensive, the expense is justified by their years of excellence.

The best stringed instruments do hang around for many, many years. Because they cost so much when new no one ever dared trash them. Indeed, those instruments always get the most care and attention as the best of the best.

I loved the the permanence of the product I helped make the most. When I created a beautiful sunburst, the thought that 50 years in the future, after I was long gone, someone else would love that burst as much as I did was very gratifying to me.

I don't care if I'm forgotten by history, but if some guitar I did delights some kid in 2075, that's close enough to historical for me.

 

[Cougar]

Gibson pioneered the use of sprayed colored lacquers guitars.

I've always loved the Gibson teardrop burst. I don't imagine you painted this 2018 "rosewood burst" Songwriter 12-string. It looked tremendous on reverb.com and even better when I got it home....