(2)-SF Bass NGD This week

idealassets

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In my opinion this is the ultimate great bass sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWCaMRqdV_c Jack adds a little more than whats on the 67' album.
This piece is no big secret, just pointing out what bass sound I think is the ultimate, but never paid much attention until just recently.

That's interesting,.. no comments on the Stanley Clark sound that I posted. This style is perhaps initially impressive, but redundant after about 2 minutes of it.

Out of the 2 examples (Casady vs Clarke) I like the tasteful & supportive JA bass sound, applied to an already great piece of music, which is the frosting on the cake.

I have in front of me (thanks to a suggestion on LTG) the Bass Guitar of Jack Casady (& Rick Danko's Electric Bass Techniques). These seem to be a good starting off point.

-Tonight at our local Folk Society dance (not music jam) the paid band had no bass in it. The sound was quite empty as such, and illustrates further the local shortage of good bassmen. This shouldn't be so, but I suppose it is.

Time to practice,
Craig
 

barsinister

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Man I love that starfire 1--when i was in my 20,s i went to the old "we buy Guitars"shop on 48th st and there was a GREEN single bridge pickup sf 1--$225.00!!!and that was 225 more than i had :roll:
 

idealassets

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I love these stories, especially from all the Guild recountiers out there, since I knew very little guitars tech until just recently.

Now this is definately a true story!

When I was 18 a fellow had advertised locally a set of double bass Ludwig drums (champagne sparle, yuk!) There was a 5" chrome snare drum in there. The add stated "Take it all, must sell, $225".

There were a few Zildjian cymbols & stands thrown in, one cymbol without any cracks. He agreed to $75 for the works! So after a loan from my Mom of the full amout these drums became mine, with a foot locker thrown in to carry all the extra heads that were removed. (Uncool to have the lower heads on in the 70's, if anyone recalls).

Back in the day...
Craig
 

mellowgerman

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Frono called it :D Love that 66!!! Two words, flatwound strings! At least if you're looking for that thick, early jack tone.
In terms of amplification, I'm currently playing through an SWR Working Pro 12. Never thought i'd be completely satisfied with a solid state bass amp, but alas this thing is phenomenal! Similar to the hartke previously mentioned in that it is also a 1x12 kickback design, but probably a tad more expensive at around $540... Worth every penny IMO. Pushes 200 watts for incredibly round and loud tone. Also has a tweeter but i too have only ever gotten unwanted hiss and clank from them, so it's nice that there's a volume knob and an on/off/-6dB switch for it -- mine is always completely off but to each his/her own.
And oh yeah, did i mention that the whole thing basically weighs no more than my old fender tube head alone?! :)
 

jte

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mgod said:
jte said:
A. A HIGHLY modified Starfire Bass- this is the one the folks who eventually started Alembic did all the work on to give him more control over the sounds, and to eliminate high-frequency loss in the pickups. Ron Wickersham at Alembic has said they found that even 3" of cable between the Bi-Sonic and the first amplifier stage gave them audibly noticeable high end loss. That's why the went with active pickups- to put the first amplifier stage right IN the pickup housing.

John
For anyone else who isn't already certain of what they know and find the subject interesting, this is completely incorrect. But its the internets and everyone is an authority based on their quality of assertiveness.

Nonetheless - Alembic pickups are very low output and are passive; they have no amplifying stages inside them. And as far as we can determine at this late date, both Jack's Starfires were primarily passive instruments, with only one active stage in them, which was not an amplifier.

Also, his speakers were JBL or Altec 15s, and the 12 in the Versatone.

Well, it's not the internet, but here's what Ron Wickersham is quoted as saying in Jim Roberts' "American Basses" © 2003 by Jim Roberts, Backbeat Books page 12.

"It was there that the first active electronics were placed in an instrument- Phil Lesh's Guild [Starfire] bass, which had Hagstrom pickups mad in Sweden. The pickups had winding inductance of several Henries, so the high frequencies were getting lost in the cord to the amp. We found that isolating the cord's capacitance would bring out the highs while preserving the tone in the lows. And we found that even a 6" cable from the pickup to the electronics moved the self resonance down about an octave, so the preamp was built right on the terminals of the pickup."

Later on page 13 Roberts writes:
"Alembic's early instrument projects included the installation of low-impedance pickups and active electronics in Guild Starfire basses used by both Lesh and the Jefferson Airplane's Jack Cassady."

So, I'm going with Wickersham and Roberts on this one.

John
 

mgod

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Active electronics is a different thing than an active pickup. A little bit of knowledge is a terrible thing, in this case the ability to read but not understand.

The circuit Ron is talking about is called an emitter follower, and its a circuit which is used to drop impedance but not amplify. Nothing is built IN to the pickups. I own the first bass they did this in, according to Ron, and I've had it for 37 years, which is when Phil gave it to me, but the circuit was done in 1969. I've been down this road a little bit.

Neither of Jack's Starfires had lo-z pickups, and - although it took a very long time to get the story right - it turns out the filtering was all passive too. Its Alembic #1 and Phil's Starfire that see the first real Alembic pickups (passive) and active filtering. Until then the emitter follower is the only active stage. The bass Jack's playing at Woodstock is pre- all of that.

Someone once said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts. We have someone here trying to learn something. But wth, go with what makes you feel good. I'd just prefer you not confuse anyone but yourself.
 

jte

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mgod said:
Active electronics is a different thing than an active pickup. A little bit of knowledge is a terrible thing, in this case the ability to read but not understand.

The circuit Ron is talking about is called an emitter follower, and its a circuit which is used to drop impedance but not amplify. Nothing is built IN to the pickups. I own the first bass they did this in, according to Ron, and I've had it for 37 years, which is when Phil gave it to me, but the circuit was done in 1969. I've been down this road a little bit.

Neither of Jack's Starfires had lo-z pickups, and - although it took a very long time to get the story right - it turns out the filtering was all passive too. Its Alembic #1 and Phil's Starfire that see the first real Alembic pickups (passive) and active filtering. Until then the emitter follower is the only active stage. The bass Jack's playing at Woodstock is pre- all of that.

Someone once said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts. We have someone here trying to learn something. But wth, go with what makes you feel good. I'd just prefer you not confuse anyone but yourself.

I'll defer to you on this, but the material I quoted from Wickersham himself is the source for my statements, not vague internet ramblings. In the same book cited, Wickersham on page 19 says "My background in in broadcasting and hi-fi electronics- magnetic phono cartridges and tape heads- led me to realize that putting the first amplifier close to the pickup would improve this further" (high frequency loss due to loading the pickup).

Then Wickersham refers to the emitter-follower as an amplifier and talks again to where the amp is placed- "To get the best response, it was necessary to reduce the lead length to zero, so the electronics ere built into the terminals of the pickup." Now the semantics of "active pickup" to ME mean the active stage is right there at the pickup. No, it's not inside the Hagstrom pickup housings like an EMG, but it's right on the pickup assembly, so it's not like a typical bass pre-amp that's connected to the PUP with 6" of wire.

So, the RCA CA 3018 Darlington-connected monolithic circuit (again quoting Wickersham in "American Basses", page 19) IS active, yes?

And that circuit was connected right on the pickup terminals and not on wires extending from the pickup terminals, but right on the pickup, correct?

There's where the semantics of "active pickup" comes from in my use. I appreciate the clarification.

John
 

idealassets

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When I saw the Dead (Birmingham, AL, 1979) the Dead did not perform with "The Wall of Sound". I liked that 79' show, since they did irritate my eardrums that night. The Dead featured the wall of sound on the live album "Steal Your Face", which was one of the few lackluster albums by the Dead.

So with all that electronic improvisation with pickups and amplification happening, they were still capable of sounding not so hot, although technically impressive in theory.

Were Chris Hillman and Steve Boone (Spoonful) playing with stock Guild basses at the time? From a layman's point of view, their work sounded quite nice and right for the sound they were attempting to produce. Is that is like saying that Ringo's drumming was good? I could lose my argument that I thought Ringo was boring, compared to Mitch Mitchell, Danny Seraphine, or Buddy Miles.

Craig
 

mgod

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jte said:
I'll defer to you on this, but the material I quoted from Wickersham himself is the source for my statements, not vague internet ramblings. In the same book cited, Wickersham on page 19 says "My background in in broadcasting and hi-fi electronics- magnetic phono cartridges and tape heads- led me to realize that putting the first amplifier close to the pickup would improve this further" (high frequency loss due to loading the pickup).

Then Wickersham refers to the emitter-follower as an amplifier and talks again to where the amp is placed- "To get the best response, it was necessary to reduce the lead length to zero, so the electronics ere built into the terminals of the pickup." Now the semantics of "active pickup" to ME mean the active stage is right there at the pickup. No, it's not inside the Hagstrom pickup housings like an EMG, but it's right on the pickup assembly, so it's not like a typical bass pre-amp that's connected to the PUP with 6" of wire.

So, the RCA CA 3018 Darlington-connected monolithic circuit (again quoting Wickersham in "American Basses", page 19) IS active, yes?

And that circuit was connected right on the pickup terminals and not on wires extending from the pickup terminals, but right on the pickup, correct?

There's where the semantics of "active pickup" comes from in my use. I appreciate the clarification.

John
Not a problem, friend. The material I'm quoting is from almost 4 decades of talking to Ron, and Rick, and Jack, and bizarrely, Bear - who insisted to me that Jack never played a hollow bass in the 60s. Obviously, as the saying goes, he WAS there.

So, yes, an EF circuit IS active. Ron's latest take (see Blair's book) is that the bass Phil gave me was the first active bass - but the circuit wasn't on the output terminals of the Hagstroms, it was hung from the top of the bass - it still has the two holes. But circuit-wise it was. They're two different meanings.

An amplifier can have a unity gain structure, meaning no increase in volume, but buffering. In this case the goal was a drop in output impedance. These particular Hagstrom pickups were pretty high in output level.

Jack's brown bass wouldn't have had it - this is where Ron and Bear begin their collaboration. The next instrument seems to be mine, although it might have been an early stage of playing with Phil's Starfire. Then Phil goes back to the heavily modified EB-O, which probably had it too. Jack's sunburst Starfire might be right before, or not - I don't remember if we figured out when Phil puts down the Guild for a couple years and goes to the Gibson. And then on to more elaborate experiments. The big revelation was a few years ago when, from listening, and playing with the elaborate filters, I realized that Jack's sunburst Starfire had to have passive filtration. I called Ron and he agreed.

So, then, finally to the point: if you play whatever bass you're using through tweeters, especially bullet tweeters, and then play it through an amp with a normal speaker arrangement, and listen to the top end, you'll hear what I'm writing about. The treble that we associate with the sound of Alembic's early experimental days isn't what passes these days for full-range sound. Its based on limited bandwidth drivers. As far as a I recall, the presence of a bass tweeters goes back to late 80s SWR, and even then it was Steve's complete misinterpretation of something. The Baby Blue came closest - no surprise Jack used it. Although there are 2 speaker Versatones, with a 12 and an 8, as near as I can tell Jack didn't know they ever existed until 93. He had 4, and they were single 12 models.

As for the Wall, it was more than technically impressive in theory - it sounded incredible, which doesn't mean the Dead were at their height, even then. I'm most fond of 71-72. Henry Kaiser just sent me the 72 Rotterdam Dark Star- holy bejesus.
 

jte

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mgod-

Thanks for the history lessons! I love it. Curious about Bear's statement regarding Jack not using a hollow body bass- is that the famous line about the '60s you reference, or is it precision because a Starfire is a semi-hollow... :D

I've gigged on bass since 1976. I've used a lot of different cabinets in that time, including Music Man 212RH, Fender Dual Showman, Bassman 2x12 (small one), home-made boxes- one which was from E/V's common TL-606 documents, one a reproduction of the E/V Eliminator folded horn box, original Guild/Hartke 4x10, and modern cabinets with tweeters (Hartke 4.5 with a small dynamic speaker for the highs, Eden D-series XLT boxes, both the 4x10 and the 2x12), and I don't find annoying things in these tweets compared to running single-sized driver full-range boxes. To me it seems to be much like discussions of setting one's EQ "flat". Whether the whole signal chain is really ±3dB from 20 - 20K isn't as critical as "do I like how it sounds?". I KNOW my rig isn't flat even though I set the EQ on it (Eden WT-400) to nominally flat and don't use the "enhance" circuit as my default starting place. I like how it sounds with my basses through most cabinets in most rooms with the EQ set flat. I also know the cabs and the amp are shaping the sound so it's not flat. But it works well for me and I know it's not flat.

Same with using an amp with a Fender-ish tone bank, I know there's really no flat setting, and the closest is 2-10-2, but I know how it works for me. However, you've given me some food for thought about revisiting say the TL-606 design or other single-sized driver boxes with more "modern" amps.

I really appreciate this dialogue!

John
 

idealassets

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I am A/B'ing these basses on my new Ampeg BA112 amp. (Guitar Center has a 25% off sale on lots of amps right now) So I got one that's new out of the box. My idea is to get a better bass amp in time, but needed a good practice amp for now.

First of all, should I be playing through the active or passive input? Sorry to ask, its been a long day.

I do not have recordings for these, so I will verbalize. Using my finger tips, I played the bass run from "My City Was Gone" (Pretenders). All guitars had the volume(s) at max, and all tone settings at mid-point (both guitar & amp), the amp volume at "2". I am just starting to play the bass, so here is my verbal A/B/C:

A) 1966 Guild Starfire I: I love this guitar! It has a clean percussive sound to it and is easy to play. It also modulates well with volume accents on certain notes, without distorting. (You know from all those years of playing drums) It sounds great and thumpy, like giving my playing credit for more than I deserve. The guitar itself is a great relic, and I will soon have an Ibanez guitar to wear out in practice, so I don't put wear on this 66' merely doing all the bass rudiments.

B) 1968 Gibson EB2: I can't hate this guitar. Its all decked out with all the original chrome and pick guard, and its heavier than the Guilds. It sounds a little bit less distinct on each note than the Guild. It has the "mute" bar that holds down all the strings with some felt on the chrome bar, and it has the "bass boost" switch, which actually gives out a little extra punch. It sounds a little bit mushier when playing 1/8 note runs.

C) 1974 Guild Starfire II: This guitar is advanced in technology from the older Starfires. It has the chrome Grover heavy duty tuners, and the headstock is bigger. Also it has a high gloss finish, that makes it look newer, instead of the antique sheen on the 66'. Its "prettier" and everything has more gloss, including the glossy black headstock and logo. I can't help but like this guitar, and it has that vintage appearance to it. Its not quite as thumpy as the SFI, but I like the sound of both the humbuckers playing in unison. I don't think the "chromebuckers" are all that bad, and most folks wouldn't notice the difference (except for that select few, who do).

Perhaps at a future time I will have some sound clips, all in good time..

Thank you,
Craig
 

fronobulax

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Passive. The rule of thumb is that if there is no battery in the bass then try the passive input first.

Thanks for the impressions.
 

mellowgerman

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Depending on the amp, some passive basses will be better put through the active channel or with the active switch engaged (whichever your amp has).
The idea behind the "active" mode is that active basses generally have a higher output that passive basses, when the EQ boosts are being used. With that in mind, some passive pickups (like gibson mudbuckers and guild bisonics) have a higher than normal output in comparison with other passive pickups (like fenders, danos, etc). So a -10dB pad might offer your preamp some appropriate protection. That said, I've usually always gone "passive" mode with bisonics and dark stars without many problems. If your preamp "clips" a lot though, try going with the "active" mode.
 

idealassets

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Mellow,
The preamp is -15db and I haven't gotten any clipping yet. I'll check for that sometime at a higher volume, in a space larger than my practice room. I'm happy with this amp. There are many folk music groups that allow a bass & amp in an acoustic group, but I wouldn't want to see that changed, were I to show up with a very large amp.

Now for the clincher- is there a source where I can obtain a reprint of any users manuals for the 66' and for the 74'? That would be great. If someone were to have these, and make copies to PDF to me they could name a price for them. I'll probablymake a seperate post for this, if necessary.

Today, I have some raw fingers on both hands. But the plus side is that hopefully my guitar playing will improve with a bit of switching over to bass periodically.

Craig
 

mgod

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My technique:

1) Stick the plug in one hole, play.

2) Stick it in the other, play.

3) Go with the louder one, or the obviously better sounding one.

4) Stop worrying about it and do the rest with fingers.
 

fronobulax

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My experience has been that the only difference between the active and passive inputs is a pad that attenuates the input. -10 dB and -15 dB seem to be common. Generally you don't want the pad unless your instrument is over-driving or saturating the preamp. As a rule of thumb, an active pickup or a very "hot" pickup is more likely to need the attenuation than a passive pickup but ultimately you do whatever works for your bass and amp.

Since the BA-112 has the "style" options you might also find that what works for you depends upon the style and other EQ you are using.

As for owner's manuals, good luck. I've never seen one and am not even sure they exist. My '71 JS either never had one or it disappeared between the factory and the dealer since I have no recollection that I received one.
 

idealassets

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My technique
Thats the key, with 1000's of hours in, you's all have the mojo.

My time in was on drums. But, a niche exists for 50, 60, or 70 yr old instrumentalists. (Robbie Robertson, Jorma, Roger McGuinn, Marty Balin- all as good as ever) Not so much for drummers. Stringed instruments are just much more "musical" of a way to go.

Craig
 

mikko

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I´m using a BA112 for practising. I don´t have a real Starfire with bi-sonics but a Dark Starred DeArmond. I use "0dB" plug usually except when playing with headphones on. Then I have to use "-15dB" otherwise it´s all too loud for my ears.
How do you feel about that little amp? I think it´s very handy and good for practising but I never got a really good sound out of it. Except with my 4003, seems like Rickenbacker and Ampeg really like each other.
 
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