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Scratch

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Re: My Hoboken & Westerly F-112s

fungusyoung said:
Chazmo said:
Very interesting about the recording comment... I've heard the same thing said about maple as a tonewood (versus rosewood) in that even though maple tends to be a much dryer sound acoustically it records better. I imagine small-bodied 12s record very well, especially in mahogany (which is dryer than rosewood too).

This is second hand "information" for me as I've spent zero time with recording equipment, but it makes sense. In anything involving microphones, the projection and accentuation of various harmonics is probably less desirable than when you're just using your ear in a purely acoustic, unamplified setting. That's why it's always seemed to me that it doesn't matter so much when stage musicians use unimpressive acoustic gear -- it's not particularly relevant to how they sound through speakers.

Just thinking out loud.


Thinking out loud and being right while doing it, Chazmo! At least, that's been my experience.

My 000-15 (all mahogany) is a wonderful guitar for recording. Much as I loved my DV52, it had massive overtones which was great for around the house, out on the patio & live, but I struggled recording that guitar. In contrast, my DV6 (same basic guitar as the DV52 but with mahogany instead of rosewood) records very well for a dread. I'm anxious to try my Martin D-35 too because even though it's rosewood it's ridiculously mellow compared to D28's (or the DV52) probably due to the bracing, etc.

I love maple as a tone wood. I just haven't used it enough yet, but to me it combines some of the best attributes of both mahogany & rosewood.

No worries, Michael. That DV52 is still getting lots and lots of love. Restrung it a couple of weeks ago and I'll probably take 'Fungo' with me to Arlington next week. While I was at it, I dressed the fingerboard, polished the frets, cleaned/polished and waxed (carnuba) it. It's looking and playing so good...

You're right about the difference between the Martin D35 and the DV52. That Martin was/is smooth as silk as I recall, but I wanted boom and got it...

Also agree with the comments concerning recording with 'hog' vs. rosewood. The D40 is probably my best recording guitar and my fave for gigs. That warm, mellow mahogany tone is special for those purposes.
 

shepke

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Re: My Hoboken & Westerly F-112s

These are some interesting and thought-provoking comments. Although I’ve recorded quite a few different guitars over the years I never really gave much thought to the psycho-acoustic issues. But I think Chazmo is probably right about harmonics and overtones. In a mix, it’s always important to give each instrument a sonic space of its own (sorry, Phil Spector), and when recording multiple guitars each has to have a recognizable identity or things can get mushy. Panning does this to some extent by placing instrument further away from each other in the stereo field, but it is also important to have some control over both the very high frequencies as well as the very low frequencies in an instrument’s range. I think that too many ringing and clashing harmonics from multiple stringed instruments can “stand in the air” so to speak and create an indistinct sonic wash that blurs the identity of individual instruments. At some point, the engineer might start rolling off high end to compensate, but this will soon start to affect the fundamentals of the instrument. Larger guitar bodies like dreads and jumbos are great for performing live; they project more powerfully, and, depending on the instrument, can give a fuller richer sound when volume is necessary. Smaller bodies can start to “compress” when you hit them too hard. But recording is often a more intimate setting, even when the desired sound is ultimately big. In short, the mic is the boss here, and smaller bodies, having a more intimate sound, translate better when recorded. This is not to say that you can’t get a great sound with a good dread, but you have to pay closer attention to mic placement and room ambience. The same principle seems to apply to ampified electrics - big amps don't usually give a good sound in a small studio setting (unless you want to sound like Black Sabbath). This is why even giant srceaming leads are so often recorded with suprisingly small amps in most sudios

I don’t have a lot of experience with rosewood, but I did recently record a Larrivee L-9 (I believe – it could have been an L-7). Sounded very pretty damned good but I had to roll off some mid bass (the so called mud range between 200 and 300 Hz) to get the desired clarity through to the mic. Funny, because listening to the instrument acoustically, it sounded terrific. This was no big deal, but it did require some additional attention to the lows.

From my even more limited experience with maple, all I can say is I recorded a Gibson Gospel not too long ago (I believe it was anyway– or at least some sort of 70s model with maple back and sides). Once again sounded pretty good acoustically, but overly bright at playback (the opposite effect). Here it was necessary to roll off some high end (6 – 8 kHz) to get it sounding like itself, so to speak.

I also agree with Fungusyoung. Mahogany tops give a great sound for blues and old time stuff, and they have a very distinctive character, especially in the midrange fundamentals (I own a Martin 00015S). The mahogany top, combined with the small body and also the matte finish on these models make them nice recording instruments (the good ones ooze personality). One minor caution with these though – put new strings on before recording. The mahogany seems to absorb more high frequencies (hence the midrange emphasis) and older strings can sound dull when recorded. I’ve never recorded a Guild mahogany top, but I suspect they behave much the same.

One last comment before I bore everyone here to death. If possible use a matched pair of small diaphragm condenser mics (“pencil mics”) if possible - one at the base of the neck above the sound hole for sparkle and one midway between the sound hole and the bottom of the lower bout to capture the depth of the body. I have a number of different large and small diaphragm mics, but I seem to gravitate to a pair of Samson C02s. These are relatively cheap mics (about $125 a pair!), and I usually wouldn’t recommend Samson products, but somehow or other (at least to my ear), they are very nice for acoustic guitar. The frequency response seems to be close to optimal for what acoustics do. Of course, if you have a pair of Neumann’s use those by all means.
 

GardMan

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Re: My Hoboken & Westerly F-112s

I'll add to the veer...
I am not a recording engineer by any means, but I have played with recording (in my basement) with all of my dreads (well, not the D-50, yet; all spruce tops combined with five different back woods... either flat or arched). I use two "matched" (same model, but not sold as stereo pair) MXL small condensor mics, the first 6-8" from where the neck/body meet, the other 6-8" from the bridge (a third MXL large condensor is used for vocals).

For songs that are fingerpicked, the bass of the rosewood D-55 is just too overpowering (I imagine the D-50 would be the same, but haven't tried it yet). Don't have an equalizer in my signal line, and just can't seem to get it to sound quite right when mixing tracks. I have some of the same bass problems with the arched mahogany back D-25 (if you listen to Sh'beg Sh'more/Dark-eyed Molly on my soundclick page, you will hear the D-25's bass overwhelming the trebles).

Fingerpicked D-35 (flat mahogany), G-37 (arched maple), D-46 (ash), and/or D-44 (pearwood) are all easier to deal with than rosewood, and sound better recorded. Sort of wierd, but to my ear (and with my lousy recording skills), the recorded D-46 sounds like the D-55 live, and the D-44 recorded sounds like the D-50 live.

However, when recording strumming cowboy chords, it turns around. The non-rosewood guitars all sound too bright, and weak in the bass range, while the D-55 sounds much more balanced. I'm betting that the D-50 will be similar (live, it has more bite to the trebles, but much the same bass as the D-55). Some of this may be proximity effect/distance from the mics... they are usually moved back a little for strumming songs, both to get them out of the way, and because of the volume.

So, which guitar I record with depends on the song... strumming means rosewood. Finger picking means non-rosewood (and all of them have ther different voices, as well).
D
 

shepke

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Re: My Hoboken & Westerly F-112s

Gardman: I went to your Soundclick page and listened to everything. First up I have to say that these are all nicely recorded. There’s nothing there that bothers me really about the tone of these guitars. Also, your finger picking is right on the money – well balanced, smooth, and gracefully executed. The playing also blends nicely with your voice, which is full bodied, confident, harmonically rich and well intoned. You’ve captured what was in the room quite well and that’s 90% of what recording guitar and vocals should do.

I can hear immediately that these are high quality dreadnaughts, which means to me that you’re doing this pretty much the right way. I can also tell that you’re favoring the body of the instrument slightly with your mic placement. The giveaway here is that there’s very little finger sound. Finger sound is not a particularly good thing, and can really get in the way, but you’ve got to tolerate some in order to improve the high end. Listen to a few of your favorite finger style recordings, (I like Bert Jansch and Nick Drake – who favored Guild dreadnaughts, if I’m not mistaken); you might be surprised by how much finger sound you hear once you start listening for it.

But, I also have to say that this is a matter of taste - what you’ve gained in silent fingering might be worth the slight boom in the bass. It’s all a tradeoff and you’ve got to please yourself first.

Consider trying a few tweaks, though, and see if they make you happier. You’ve got two dimensions to work with x two mics; first, where you are micing on the instrument, and second, how far the mic sits from the instrument. I would suggest moving one mic so it’s getting more of the neck and less of the lower bout. This is where the treble and clarity live (remember even small changes can produce big results and an inch one way or another can make a noticeable difference). As a general rule though stay away from the sound hole. Listen to see if this has improved clarity and volume in the highs. If it does, but you still feel the bottom needs more work, move the other mic back a little bit from the body and maybe even move it a touch more toward the neck. At some point you’re going to find the sweet spot. This is sort of like eqing but much better for a natural, transparent sound, and as I said before, good dreadnaughts just require a little more attention to micing in order to pay off. Lots of players use smaller bodies for finger style precisely because of the dreadnaught boom, but this need not be a big problem if you prefer a dreadnaught-sized body. Also remember that the rosewood back and sides can add another variable in the low end to compensate for. A slightly more radical strategy based on the micing outlined above should do it.

Having said all this, though, I can perfectly well listen to your recordings and enjoy them without giving a thought to all this technical gibberish. Whatever you’re doing make sure you enjoy it first. I’ve always gotten a kick out of struggling with and overcoming little technical problems, which is why I enjoy audio engineering I suppose, and like any obsessive, I’m a little disappointed if I don’t have any problems. But music is ultimately about the performance, and you don’t have any real problems there.
 

GardMan

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Re: My Hoboken & Westerly F-112s

shepke,
Thx for the kind words :oops: , and even more for the advice. I made these recordings as part of a CD I gave my 81 year old Mom and Dad last Xmas... in my basement room w/o any real heed paid to the acoustics. I can tell you, It's a bit difficult to be a sound engineer at the same time you're the performer (basically, I just try and get things set up, and then forget about the recorder and play). I don't even monitor when I am playing... so I don't know what it sounds like until I am finished. Thx again,
Dave
 

chazzan

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Re: My Hoboken & Westerly F-112s

Not to feed anyone's GAS here (Scratch) but here's a story-

I was at an open mike when I heard a Guild f-112, the 60's model- I remember really liking the sound! I also liked the small body, since I am not a tall person (I sold my 1981 d-25 because I felt I was wrestling a whale) Soon after a near mint Guild F-112 from 1974 came in to my local guitar store, I bought it in 1999 for $535.

I took to that guitar great and used it at gigs, even though it was a 12 string! All the folkies, after hearing that guitar sung Guild's praises! Since then 2 people have bought Guild 12 strings after hearing my guitar-and one other got a Guild 6 string. (Within a Year) I guess what goes around comes around!

Those little 112's are great!

Epilogue- after the 112- I had to have the matching f-30- found one in 2003! Now I have those and an f-20, mark ii and mark iv classical.
Sold all the other Gibson Martin National and Fender guits- all I have, after playing for 27 years, are 5 Guilds! Naturally I love the website- Thanks Don!
 
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