D35 - planing fretboard in lieu of neck reset?

Grassdog

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My apologies if someone has posted this before, but I ran across this on YouTube (all I do anymore is watch guitar videos which tells you something about the exciting life I lead) where the guy planes the fretboard to lower the action on a late 70's D35. He also replaced the frets with evo gold fret wire and made some other improvements. The job appears to have turned out great. So this begs the question of whether planing the neck is a preferable alternative to the dreaded neck reset (and all the adventures that could entail). I thought all you D35 lovers lurking out there might enjoy this.

 

gjmalcyon

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I've always thought once a neck starts moving, it continues to move. If that's the case, then this solution is only a temporary fix.

Nice-sounding and looking guitar.
 

adorshki

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My apologies if someone has posted this before, but I ran across this on YouTube (all I do anymore is watch guitar videos which tells you something about the exciting life I lead) where the guy planes the fretboard to lower the action on a late 70's D35. He also replaced the frets with evo gold fret wire and made some other improvements. The job appears to have turned out great. So this begs the question of whether planing the neck is a preferable alternative to the dreaded neck reset
I didn't watch the video but something just doesn't make sense about the proposition:
Planing the board is going to make it thinner, but that's not going to get the strings closer to the frets ("lowering the action" as stated, quite the opposite in fact); and no way it's going to compensate for bad angle which is what really requires a re-set.
I suspect the real problem was a distorted neck, not a bad neck angle.
If the distortion created "high spots" along the fretboard then yes planing would be the appropriate fix to lower the high spots (areas where "action" is too close to the frets) by making the fretboard "flat" again..
But that's an entirely different problem than the neck alignment ("neck angle") being so far gone it needs a re-set.
Planing wouldn't help to compensate for excessively high action caused by bad neck angle since if you make the board thinner by planing that would tend to aggravate the problem, making the strings even further away from the tops of the frets.
Unless it was re-fretted with sitar frets.
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I've always thought once a neck starts moving, it continues to move. If that's the case, then this solution is only a temporary fix.

No, we've got reports of 'em getting to a point that's "marginal" and then staying there for years, until the time of the report, at least.
Suspect it may be related to how tight the dovetail a and whether or not hideglue was used when considering other makers besides Guild (and even Guild used Titebond in necksetting in New Hartford for sure, at least.)
But again I don't think that was the real problem here.
 
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Grassdog

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Al, what I think he's doing is removing more material from the top end of the fretboard (1st 3 -5 frets) and tapers it as it moves toward the other end by the neck block. When he makes a new nut (which must be cut to compensate for the material removed from the top end) it brings the string height down overall. That's how I'm interpreting the procedure. That said, I have almost no luthier skills whatsoever. Just presenting it for discussion purposes.
 

cutrofiano

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O.K., though by now having become aware of my - may be typically- German manner of being direct, know-all or "funny" (campfire guitar...) in a way, Americans will consider impolite, I dare to add my 2P:
This film lacks of any information / explanation about how this is supposed to function.
The need of a neck reset (or the reason for higher action over the years) is that the bridge, together with the deck itself, has lifted up ("belly") and what makes it even worse: The deck between the 12th fret and the soundhole may have sunk in.
At a certain point, you cannot tighten the trossrod further more because otherwise it will cause a kink on the 12th fret (or where the neck meets the body).
To remarkably lower the string's action on 12th fret just by lowering the nut, you would have to cut it by half of it's height!
Would the fret board around the nut's slot allow this amount of lowering without being ruined?
I don't trust this workaround at all.

Moritz
 

adorshki

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Al, what I think he's doing is removing more material from the top end of the fretboard (1st 3 -5 frets) and tapers it as it moves toward the other end by the neck block. When he makes a new nut (which must be cut to compensate for the material removed from the top end) it brings the string height down overall. That's how I'm interpreting the procedure. That said, I have almost no luthier skills whatsoever. Just presenting it for discussion purposes.
I get the "geometry" and thought about that originally, but I'd be very surprised if there's enough room at the nut end of the fretboard to compensate for a truly bad neck angle by simply thinning the fretboard and lowering the nut (slots).
Thinning the board also risks making it too thin to take a fret.
On the other hand since close to he nut is where the action is always the lowest anyway, maybe he's juts buying a little more time for somebody who never plays above the 5th fret anyway, which is about where it starts getting really bad when the neck's "collapsing" into the top.
Now I'd start worrying about whether the board can still be used when it finally gets a re-set which includes new frets.
But that's just "opinion" in response to your "Begging the question".
I used to be 100% against shaving bridges too, but fretboards are a little more difficult and expensive to replace.
:smile:
 

adorshki

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At a certain point, you cannot tighten the trossrod further more because otherwise it will cause a kink on the 12th fret (or where the neck meets the body).
The truss rod has no effect on the angle; it's embedded in the heel and the whole heel is being pulled out of its socket by the strings, anchored at the bridge.
The fretboard may take a "kink" at the joining fret due to that fact alone, it has nothing to due with the truss rod, whose effect on the neck and fretboard ends at the neck join fret.
To remarkably lower the string's action on 12th fret just by lowering the nut, you would have to cut it by half of it's height!
That's true at the saddle ( a 2:1 ration of lowered saddle height to lowered action height at 12th fret), but at the nut end it would require even more than that because the nut slot's "action height" (actually "required clearance") is already very low compared to the saddle's.
That's why it would really only "fix" things at maybe the first 5 frets at most.
Would the fret board around the nut's slot allow this amount of lowering without being ruined?
I don't trust this workaround at all.
Moritz
Hopefully the above answers put it in perspective.
 

adorshki

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OK just watched video, the real "thing" here is that his neck angle is still "good enough" that he could "get away" with lowering his action by the desired amount by using this technique.
Not to nit-pick but he does somewhat confuse the issue by using the term "change neck angle" when that's not really what he's doing at all.
He's changing the plane of the fretboard in relation to the string height, and that's really only going to "work" in a narrow range of "bad neck angle" (and a nice thick fretboard, :smile:)
And actually in spite of my original reservations I applaud the innovative thought that went into it, think it does have a place for certain instruments, bearing in mind the issues I raised about making the board too thin, and useful life of repair.
I'd say if a neck has been stable but maybe not "optimal" for a long time (like 10+ years) it's probably even a desirable alternative to a re-set.
Nice find Grassdog!
 

Walter Broes

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It's a "please don't ask me to reset the neck!?!" pseudo luthier trick, and I wouldn't recommend it. If a guitar needs a neck reset, it needs a neck reset.
 

SFIV1967

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It all depends...I have a cheap guitar from the 60ies which I restored as it was basically unplayable. It was designed for steel strings, not for nylon, and the force of the steel strings changed the geometry of the top between bridge and soundhole significantly over the last 50 years, as you can see in the first picture before I started the repair. So installing a bridge doctor corrected this issue to zero! Amazing what a bridge doctor can do. Now the last step was exactly planing the fretboard between frets zero and three. As you can see in the last picture the guitar had a odd geometry of the fretboard from the beginning onwards! The rosewood was only about 4-5 mm thin between frets 3 and 12 but was almost 6-7 mm thick at the nut! I almost think it was intentionally designed that way. Now after planing it down to the same 4 to 5 mm between frets zero and three the action was perfect again when the strings pulled the neck forward. I also replaced and lowered the nut (as it was now way to tall) and installed a new bone saddle. So this made an unplayable guitar playable again. A neck reset would have been way to expensive compared to the value of the guitar and the issues were fixed.

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Ralf
 
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cutrofiano

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Hallo Ralf,
very nice pictured report.
It basically confirms what was said above: In your case the cure was the bridge doctor to eliminate the belly.
Sanding down the fretboard alone would not have done it.
Grüße,
Moritz
 

Br1ck

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Please, if you don't want to spend the money to fix your guitar properly, sell it to someone who will and buy another guitar. Whatever stop gap measure, shaving the bridge being the worst offender, will just make it difficult and more expensive for the next guy. I bought a D 35 years ago from Gryphon because they didn't want to sink the labor into it to make it sellable. But old wood is old wood, and my lightly built '70 had potential. But someone shaved the bridge, so I had to deal with that too. All in all, with the reset, frets, nut, bridge, and saddle, I spent $1100 on it. Bought for $250, it puts the guitar well into the $500 more than I could sell it for territory.

The economics of it all does not factor at all into the equation. I can't go buy anything that cheaply that would please me any better. I got one of the two NOS bridges Hans Moust had left. The D 35 I guess you could call my beater and will certainly last my lifetime. It remains my easiest to play guitar and a great compliment to my Martin D 35 custom, and my '65 Epiphone Texan.
 

Grassdog

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I only posted the video because I thought it was interesting (had never seen this technique before) and thought it might generate some discussion. I'm not endorsing the technique. Personally, if it's a vintage guitar I've bonded with or will "see me out", I'm sure I'd go with the neck reset and whatever else it took to make it the best it can be. But I don't entirely dismiss what this guy is saying/doing because a) it's his guitar and he's got to live with the consequences and b) he's a lot more experienced in guitar repairs/lutherie than I will ever be.
 
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