New Guild D-25

marius

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Can anyone point out any structural differences, in terms of build, between today’s D 20 & yesterday’s (the one it’s modeled after—early 70’s)? I see the finish, and potentially color (the one I had was really red; Tom Petty, so). I’m just thinking of a plan B, should A fall through.., Thanjs A lot!! :D

Biggest differences would be that the D-20 has a satin poly finish, a M&T neck joint and no binding. Compared to the D25 which I would venture to say that all flavors had nitro finish, dovetail neck joints and top and back binding.

As already discussed the D-20 is all hog with a solid flat back while the D25 top varied between mahogany and spruce and the backs varied between solid flat and laminated arched.
 

adorshki

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Biggest differences would be that the D-20 has a satin poly finish, a M&T neck joint and no binding.
I'll be damned you're right, on the website they're finally stating the satin finish is polyurethane.
When the M20's came out they only called it "catalyzed varnish" which admittedly is a generic catch-all term for just about anything.
I'm not real happy about that, because the way I understand it, with poly what you get on day one is the way it's always gonna be.
I'm one of those guys who believes real NCL contributes to the opening up process by getting more resonant as it ages.


Compared to the D25 which I would venture to say that all flavors had nitro finish, dovetail neck joints and top and back binding.
As far as I can remember, "all true dat".
Even Corona's satin finished version.
Edit: Since this was first posted I saw the '03 catalog which actually states the last US-built D25s were satin acrylic finish:
 
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midnightright

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Thanks guys! Yes, mine was I believe a ‘73, according to the shop I got it from. It looked similar to some I see these days, except that they are usually brown. It may or may not have had the CH designation in the label (I can’t recall).

I do know that the dark red finish was so stunning, especially when viewed up close—such as when playing seated. You could really get a good glimpse of the grain. It definitely had the mahogany top and flat back. And it sounded much unlike any D-25/4, I’d ever encountered before. Which, aside from different technical specs, such as those offered by marius, was a much older guitar. I didn’t (& still don’t have a ton of vintage experience), however, I will say that that instrument had a magic to it—both in terms of sound & playability—that I have yet to replicate.

Memory is not as strong as it could or should be as it’s been a decade or more. And to think of it even now, recalls painful interpersonal memories! Argh..;) Yes, indeed: “fun-times.” :)

P. S. I could’ve sworn I was told over the phone by a dealer a couple of years or so ago, that the new M-20 came with a dovetail neck joint. And that this was one of the primary reasons for its superiority over the Martin 000-15m. Maybe they were mistaken...
 

midnightright

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And yes, adorshki! In fact, that difference in NCL makeup, was one of the strong selling points made by the place I bought the guitar from. Environmental issues aside! ;)
 

fronobulax

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P. S. I could’ve sworn I was told over the phone by a dealer a couple of years or so ago, that the new M-20 came with a dovetail neck joint. And that this was one of the primary reasons for its superiority over the Martin 000-15m. Maybe they were mistaken...

From https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/showt...p-to-the-M20&p=1785637&viewfull=1#post1785637

They are not a traditional dovetail neck joint, it has an interlocking neck tenon system, similar to what USA Series Gibsons currently use, since 2008 (not custom shop Gibsons). this is an internal design change that does not effect the external size/shape/dimensions on the Guild (or Gibsons). They are still "set neck guitars" if you ask me, since a) there is glue involved, b) it is not designed to be simply swapped out by removing 4 screws and a back plate...anyway, it is nothing too fancy, but it's not supposed to be.


I recall some controversy about the neck on the M-20 from Oxnard. Cordoba was accused of changing the method of attachment and not being forthcoming about it. So the dealer may have just been passing on what they were told.
 

marius

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I'll be damned you're right, on the website they're finally stating the satin finish is polyurethane.
When the M20's came out they only called it "catalyzed varnish" which admittedly is a generic catch-all term for just about anything.
I'm not real happy about that, because the way I understand it, with poly what you get on day one is the way it's always gonna be.
I'm one of those guys who believes real NCL contributes to the opening up process by getting more resonant as it ages.

I suppose the new M-25E announced at NAMM could be an indicator of things to come with a CMG D-25E. Think D-20 with binding and NCL finish.

That’s actually what I thought this post was about when I originally saw the thread title.
 

midnightright

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Guild M25E CAB Natural

This is interesting, indeed! So, it’s kind of like Martin’s D-16GT, in that the back and sides are satin?

I never liked the idea in principle (either gloss the body or don’t), but that was over a decade ago... Now, I’d probably not be so lucky!

Apologies if my link doesn’t work: it is for the M25E, from Chicago Music Exchange.

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Was supposed to say, “picky” instead of “lucky.” I really have to stop posting here—
 

adorshki

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Guild M25E CAB Natural

This is interesting, indeed! So, it’s kind of like Martin’s D-16GT, in that the back and sides are satin?
Nope, they're completely satin (the satin finish Oxnards); although Guild did do the gloss top/satin body and neck thing for a while in New Hartford, on the "Standard Series".

Was supposed to say, “picky” instead of “lucky.” I really have to stop posting here—

Nonono!!!
Subscriber count is everything for a daily paper!

:highly_amused:
 

marius

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Guild M25E CAB Natural

This is interesting, indeed! So, it’s kind of like Martin’s D-16GT, in that the back and sides are satin?

I never liked the idea in principle (either gloss the body or don’t), but that was over a decade ago... Now, I’d probably not be so lucky

That’s right. Gloss top with satin back, sides and neck. I don’t have strong opinions on gloss -vs- satin back and sides, but I love a satin neck.

Nope, they're completely satin (the satin finish Oxnards); although Guild did do the gloss top/satin body and neck thing for a while in New Hartford, on the "Standard Series".

Better check again Al. Oxnard will keep you on your toes.
:highly_amused:
 

midnightright

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It does make me wonder, if the D-25 as we knew it when the Westerly, R. I. plant closed, had continued to be in production all these years (logistics aside), whether or not that would've made a difference - not necessarily in preventing any factory closings, but perhaps in keeping a better imprint on the buying publics' conscience?
 

Curlington

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You say "archback" I say "bowlback."

A D25 flatback is a very different animal from a D25 archback. If the original dies for the dreadnought archbacks are indeed lost in the mists of time, that is a shame. The natural and unique "reverb" effect (for lack of a better term) in Guild dreadnought archbacks is perfect for strumming cowboy chords. IMHO, anyway.
 

fronobulax

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It does make me wonder, if the D-25 as we knew it when the Westerly, R. I. plant closed, had continued to be in production all these years (logistics aside), whether or not that would've made a difference - not necessarily in preventing any factory closings, but perhaps in keeping a better imprint on the buying publics' conscience?

You may certainly wonder :) I expect we are making different assumptions about the guitar market and the degree to which Guild appeared to drop out or become less visible or less important. I don't see a problem that exists today (or at any time during the 21st century) that Guild has that might have been eliminated if the D-25 had remained in production. The D-25 is iconic but there is more to a brand's image and financial success than an icon.

Is there an analogy D-25:Guild :: Beetle : Volkswagon?
 

midnightright

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Oh, no I didn’t mean to presume anything, and I’m sorry if it came across that way—I wasn’t so much hoping to inspire a debate, but rather, thinking aloud in that the place I live, which is considered a big town or small city, depending on your POV, there is a local music scene, with a modest amount of indie success. And even if I’m not 100% right about that, there are a lot of people playing and singing by themselves or in bands. The big push here is for original stuff. And there are a handful of decent open mics.

With all that said, in the last 20 years, I have hardly seen any representation of the brand—certainly in comparison to there at one time direct competitors. And this was most certainly not the case when I began playing in the mid to late 90’s. But back then, we had a dealer & for a little while, I’d say a decent supply on the used market. I’ve never known anybody personally that’s owned a Guild, and furthermore, most people I’ve met - & this is a very small sample size -are without personal experience (meaning having owned one at some point in the past).

I wouldn’t begin to be able to analyze any data on Sales figures for the brand at any point in its entirety. Just making an observation based upon one fellas personal experience dealing with some of the general buying public in the area. Of those, I have usually met armed with one, they tend to be just visiting or from out of town.

There is popular open mic at a venue with a rich history for live music, that has some talented framed photo resumes hanging up in it from long ago (the 80’s & 90’s); I’d venture a safe bet that if I were to go there tonight, I’d see plenty of the big three, and possibly—though I wouldn’t keep my fingers crossed—that there’d be a Guild (imported, perhaps, you can still get those at some of the shops here). You can still see a good cross section of lower budgeted guitars of all types—many of which sounding quite good: and I’ve seemed to notice that not a lot of the younger folk seem to give a darn what the name on the headstock says! I could probably learn a thing or two from them... And after all that, what do I know! ;)
 

adorshki

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With all that said, in the last 20 years, I have hardly seen any representation of the brand...and I’ve seemed to notice that not a lot of the younger folk seem to give a darn what the name on the headstock says! I could probably learn a thing or two from them... And after all that, what do I know! ;)

I'm sure it's more than coincidental that that period coincides with the close of Westerly followed in short order by the close of Corona, and Tacoma, and New Hartford.
Besides the issue that none of those approached the annual output volume of Westerly in its prime, they also suffered truncated periods of production, New Hartford lasting the longest of the 3, but each closure also resulting in at least a year or so of no new (domestic) production.
It also alienated dealers at least 2 of which I heard tell me they stopped carrying the brand because they couldn't trust it anymore after the multiple closures (and associated inventory liquidations).
Further aggravating the issue was that this was a period in which "cheap imports" really began to make inroads in the US market especially since their quality was getting pretty decent.
And internet sales took off, and brick and mortar stores suffered and were smacked yet again during the great recession..the market really did undergo significant change over those 20 years.
Right here we used to bemoan the difficulty of even finding a piece on the shelf in a retail store to try out (due to the low production), so it's no surprise that the younger generation of flattop plyers never even knew the brand was there to seek out, except for the imports, and that was a niche from which Taylor was able to grab significant share, besides Martin and Gibson.
And the Grand Auditorium (F40 family) bodies which Oxnard has abandoned.
No, I don't think a US built D25 would have kept the brand in front of the demographic you describe, especially considering the GAD line didn't, and a strong argument can be made that the GAD line is what kept Guild alive at all especially from '08-'11.
See Extrakrispy's comment in post #1 here:
https://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?202096-The-Last-NH-F-30-Std-Sunburst
I asked why it hadn’t sold in 5yrs? “Most of our sales are $200-$600 guitars,” the manager said.
Given that my new D25 listed at $1199 in '96 and I got it for the super-double-secret discounted price of $700 Out The Door, I doubt very much whether Guild would have even been capable of providing a domestic-built instrument anywhere near that $2-600 range in the last 20 years.
On the contrary, trying to continue production of US D25's may well have really nailed the coffin shut.
The good news is that all those US D25's is gonna start getting some respeck on the collector's market.
:glee:
 
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midnightright

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And I also think that, for me, the D-25 (& later D-4, when I couldn’t find or afford a used D-25) represented my introduction to the brand. At the time I bought it, it was a model I knew nothing about, other than some bands I liked played them. So there’s a sentimental attachment to the model that others may not share... Or for them, perhaps it is another.

Thanks for all the wonderful information as well as always adorshki! Very good analysis—& as per the course, many things I did not ever ponder or begin to know. Highly insightful; and very indebted to you for the input, knowledge and analysis/thoughts on the matter.

I remember when the CT models were fully stocked on the walls of a high end acoustic store in the closest big city to me. This was full of four or five small bench / boutique builders, as well as a wall full of Custom Martins. They also carried Taylor. Anyway, I remember thinking what might be hurting the sales in this specific instance, is that if you looked at the price tag, or this relatively unknown, and then walked over to an already established brand of comparable value (e.g. Martin & Taylor), it made you pause, or see a red light. Not at all saying that they weren’t justified in the costs, just by comparison, in terms of competition, it was tough.

At that time I was A/B-ing an F-30 & 000-18; which were very similarly priced (the guild may have even been more, as they often sold standard models for much cheaper than you’d expect to find...), I know that’s what kept bugging me. I think I even liked the Guild better. I was talking to the owner of the shop and he sounded quite exasperated, saying that they “couldn’t give them away.” (Despite how good they played and sounded — people found them kind of clunky looking, etc / can’t remember if he was referring to the headstock or not.). He said that he even liked them better than the Westerly examples of the 80’s & 90’s (when he stopped carrying them; he’d started again w/Tacoma). Ah-well, all water under the bridge.

After they were gone for a couple of years, I played a used mint F-40, which I was told by a ‘Res-guy,’ who never quite got into the acoustic. It sounded even better than the F-30 I’d played. But I was unsure with the (mini jumbo-ish?) body shape—whether or not I’d bond with it. That said, it played and sounded like magic; almost a dream.

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I thought they had an F-40 now? Hmm 🤔 must’ve been mistaken..
 

bobouz

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After they were gone for a couple of years, I played a used mint F-40, which I was told by a ‘Res-guy,’ who never quite got into the acoustic. It sounded even better than the F-30 I’d played. But I was unsure with the (mini jumbo-ish?) body shape—whether or not I’d bond with it. That said, it played and sounded like magic; almost a dream.
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I thought they had an F-40 now? Hmm �� must’ve been mistaken..

Actually, you are correct - but it's an F-40 in name only, and not the real deal. Oxnard's current F-40 has a 17" jumbo body. Up until this current version, all F-40 bodies were 16" wide in the lower bout. It's anyone's guess as to why Oxnard did this. If they had been interested in maintaining some historical accuracy, they should have called this new instrument an F-48, which was a short-lived mahogany jumbo from the '70s.

There have been a number of 16" F-40 versions, with variations in overall body shape and appointments. I personally find them to be an almost ideally sized instrument. Here's a photo of my '74:
IMGP3960.jpg
 
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