Action too low

Cougar

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As some may remember, my somewhat failed attempt at comparing Corona and Westerly JF30-12s just showed that the action on the Corona model was a bit too low, and the low E string, dropped to D, banged on the frets when picked hard. I've just been playing it without hitting it so hard, but it still needs a setup.

Well, I just FINALLY got back my new to me Oxnard F512, and danged if its action is much the same as the JF30-12. (The luthier at Guitar Czar sealed up the top gouges, and it looks pretty good, although they're still noticeable if you know where to look.) When I took it in, I thought the action was fine, so I said a setup was not needed. Well, now it is!

The neck is bowed slightly the wrong way. I'm thinking an adjustment there to put a slight concave bow to it will go a long way to getting the action a little higher. The strings over the nut don't seem to be too low. If neck adjustment doesn't resolve the problem, is shimming the saddle the typical way to raise the action? (Yes, I'm glad the action is too low rather than too high! which might indicate neck angle problems.)

Anyway, I'm taking it in tomorrow to another luthier who has got a 2 or 3-day turnaround for a setup. (Then I'll take in the JF30-12 too.) Guitar Czar has at least a one month waiting list.

Then new pics. :tiger:
 

Tom O

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Several vendors sell ebony saddle shim kits .020 and .080 thick cut 1/8 in wide if you don't want to wait. Looks like an easy fix. Guild must not think people don't tune their 12 strings down 3 or four steps anymore. The GAD G212nat I bought from Guitar Czar buzz's at C# on E strings. I think the 11th and 12th strings are hitting each other since the single strings don't buzz when struck alone. Wonder if Taylor increases string spacing on Leo Kottke specials.
 

Nuuska

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. . .
The neck is bowed slightly the wrong way. ...


Hello

This means that the truss rod is too tight.
TRC off - neck wrench in - loosen 1/4 turn at time and see what happens.

To protect threads I often put the guitar upright - top facing right - belly between my shoes and shoulders between my knees - and bend the neck lightly with my left hand to take tension off the screw.
 

marius

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The neck is bowed slightly the wrong way. I'm thinking an adjustment there to put a slight concave bow to it will go a long way to getting the action a little higher. The strings over the nut don't seem to be too low. If neck adjustment doesn't resolve the problem, is shimming the saddle the typical way to raise the action? (Yes, I'm glad the action is too low rather than too high! which might indicate neck angle problems.)

If you mean there is a back bow in the neck then adding some relief should make a big difference. http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/BuzzDiagnosis/Relief/relief.html

Once your relief is set properly then shimming the saddle is “a” way to raise the action. Some would argue that you should replace the saddle entirely.
 

davismanLV

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Don's Avalon (think G. Lowden with the split bridge saddle) was giving a similar trouble with the high strings buzzing a bit. Granted it's a 6 string and not a 12, however to get an idea if it would help, I used different thicknesses of flat picks to mark, cut, taper (sand) and shim the split bridge saddle. It started playing perfectly and I never got around to making a taller saddle. It still works just fine. At least it might give you a diagnostic tool to see if raising that side of the bridge saddle helps the trouble. Granted, it was easier with the split bridge saddle, but it might give you an idea what you're working with. Here's what the split bridge saddle looks like:

bXrQtW.jpg
 
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dougdnh

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Taking the reverse bow out of the neck will almost certainly solve the problem. If not, remember that any height adjustment made on the saddle changes the string height by half that amount. I would think that a shim made out of hardwood would be the best, but I've seen plenty of plastic ones.
 

Cougar

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Several vendors sell ebony saddle shim kits .020 and .080 thick cut 1/8 in wide if you don't want to wait. Looks like an easy fix....

Bob Colosi sells shims....

This means that the truss rod is too tight.
TRC off - neck wrench in - loosen 1/4 turn at time and see what happens....

If you mean there is a back bow in the neck then adding some relief should make a big difference....

...I used different thicknesses of flat picks to mark, cut, taper (sand) and shim the split bridge saddle. It started playing perfectly...

Taking the reverse bow out of the neck will almost certainly solve the problem....

That is all very good to hear, thanks. As y'all say, it's an easy fix. Still, I'll take it in and have a pro set it up tomorrow and get it back Wednesday. I usually put on D'Addario 10-47s. (I see there's 11-47s now. What's with that?) Does anyone strongly recommend one particular string set over another for a jumbo rosewood 12-string? :eagerness:
 

Nuuska

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Hello

While you plan to put THINNER strings on it - that means your problem gets worse - unless you change the strings first and have setup done with new strings. So whatever different gauge strings from now on - change them before setup.
 

chazmo

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Cougs, a quick quarter-turn on the truss rod will quickly tell you whether you're headed in the right direction or not. If there is, in fact, a back bow on the neck, well that should be an easy fix. However, there are a lot of possibilities. Hopefully your luthier will get you past this with either a truss rod adjustment or new saddle/nut. Generally speaking, a truss rod adjustment is often needed to keep the neck straight when you change strings or change your tuning significantly.
 

Brucebubs

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wileypickett

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Whenever the action is too low on one of my guitars I install a whole new saddle rather than using shims.

For the best sound transfer, you don't want anything between saddle and bridge.

For the same reason, I pull out any under-saddle pickups that come on a guitar I buy. I don't like acoustic pickups in general, but if I had to use one I'd go with one that connects to the underside of the bridge plate.

But keep the old saddle in the case pocket. Sometimes guitar action on will fluctuate with the season; you may find you have a use for that lower saddle again.
 

davismanLV

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It's pointless guys. He doesn't want to do it so he's taking it to someone. Which is why I question why he made the post in the first place but...... someone is fixing it for him. He doesn't want suggestions. However, I've found this very informative and educational. So he'll tell us when it's done and how happy he is...... n'kay?
 

Rayk

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Maybe he sounds like he wants someone else to do it but really wants the support and someone to talk him into it himself and most everyone knows 12 strings are the best to practice it on . Lol ��
 

Cougar

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Whenever the action is too low on one of my guitars I install a whole new saddle rather than using shims.

For the best sound transfer, you don't want anything between saddle and bridge.

That's good info. If need be, that's the way I'll go.

For the same reason, I pull out any under-saddle pickups that come on a guitar I buy. I don't like acoustic pickups in general, but if I had to use one I'd go with one that connects to the underside of the bridge plate.

Right. I had a K&K installed.
 

Grassdog

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Hey Cougar, you've probably already checked for this but its always important to make sure the guitar is properly humidified before taking it in for a set-up (especially if the guitar is new to you). Most reputable guitar techs/luthiers will be able to tell if it's dried out and will humidify it for a few days before performing the set-up. The guy I use always instructs me to use damp-its inside the sound hole for a few days before I bring it into him. Going through that right now on a D-28.
 

Cougar

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This means that the truss rod is too tight.
TRC off - neck wrench in - loosen 1/4 turn at time and see what happens....

Well, I guess I've been shamed into adjusting the damn truss rod, LOL. Now I've just got to find my truss rod tool. (I'm sort of in the middle of moving, and I've got stuff packed away.) As Nuuska says, we'll see what happens.... :cower:
 

dougdnh

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Hey Cougar, you've probably already checked for this but its always important to make sure the guitar is properly humidified before taking it in for a set-up (especially if the guitar is new to you). Most reputable guitar techs/luthiers will be able to tell if it's dried out and will humidify it for a few days before performing the set-up. The guy I use always instructs me to use damp-its inside the sound hole for a few days before I bring it into him. Going through that right now on a D-28.

This could be the problem. I sat my AO-5CE out in a room close to my space heater, and within a day or so the action was too low. Took several days of sitting in the case with a guitar humidifier to correct it.
 

davismanLV

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I believe Grassdog is suggesting humidification, along the lines that Bob Taylor uses in his videos for severe cracks before service. Not placing it next to a space heater. Dampits do a very good job. Did you mis-read part of his post dougdnh??

Or wait, I've read and re-read your post and perhaps you're agreeing with him? If so, my apologies for my wrong interpretation!! :encouragement:
 
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