Gibbys at GC

dreadnut

Gone But Not Forgotten
Gone But Not Forgotten
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
16,082
Reaction score
6,442
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Guild Total
2
So I went to GC yesterday, I went in the acoustic room and checked out the new Martins, Taylors and the 3 Gibsons they had.

It should be no surprise to anyone here that I'm not a big fan of recent Gibson acoustics. But I checked them out as best I could; by the way my local GC has them all locked at the headstock hanger now.

First thing I do is run my index finger around the sound hole. Gibsons: rough and unfinished. Martins and Taylors, smooth and finished.

Then I look closely at the places where the wood is joined, particularly the heel/body junction. On the Gibsons, the joints were rough and even showed evidence of using a dull saw to make the cuts. Now, wouldn't you stop at that point and figure out what's wrong? Nah, let's just slap 'em together and put varnish on 'em.

Of course, all the joints are perfect on the Martins and Taylors.

Then on one of the expensive Gibsons, I ran my thumb over the headstock inlay, and the MOP or MOTS was uneven and bumpy.

What the Sam Hill is gong on at Gibson?
 

Cougar

Enlightened Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
Messages
5,323
Reaction score
3,016
Location
North Idaho
Guild Total
5
I just rechecked my 2018 Songwriter 12-string. Yeah, the soundhole is not perfectly smooth, but you wouldn't know that by looking at it. No other "roughness" anywhere. I'm keeping it. :tiger:

son522.jpg
 

richardp69

Enlightened Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
6,007
Reaction score
5,965
Location
Barton City, Michigan
Yup, I'm still a Gibson fan. I have 4 J 45's, a Dove and a Hummingbird that are pretty exceptional IMHO. And I know that Taylor's are built really well and they really are attractive guitars but I've tried and owned many and they just don't do it for me. Nothing bad to say about Martin. I love (for the most part) their product, I just feel you can get comparable Guilds for significantly less money. Just one guys opinion of course.
 

MLBob

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
1,016
Reaction score
721
Location
SW Ohio
Purchased a Gibson Hummingbird Custom Shop 12 at GC in 2018 that I've been very satisfied with. It seems that about that time, more custom shop Gibsons were starting to appear in GC stores, and it was great to be able to test drive this particular guitar before pulling the trigger. This particular model was a GC exclusive from Montana. Fit & finish are exceptional; sounds great; no regrets.
I did switch out the Gibson electronics for a K&K passive system about six months later, but that was a matter of preference.
osxxcWo.jpg
[/IMG]

Bob
 

Grassdog

Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
550
Reaction score
118
Location
Cincinnati, OH
I hear ya Dread. Admittedly, I'm guilty of not paying close attention to the details but I don't doubt for a minute what you're saying about the fit and finish of the newer Gibbys. I'd prefer a late 50's - early 60's model any day over one of the new ones and I'd only buy one used. I will say that as far as the Montana built Gibbys that I've played and owned, they do have that dry and woody signature sound (absent of overtones) and I suppose that's why I'm drawn to them.
 

crank

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
1,229
Reaction score
862
I admit to knowing little about guitar quality or qualities. However, there is no mention of sound or playability which are the most important things IMO.
 

dreadnut

Gone But Not Forgotten
Gone But Not Forgotten
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
16,082
Reaction score
6,442
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Guild Total
2
Well after seeing the obvious quality issues, I didn't ask for them to be unlocked so I could see what they sounded like.
 

richardp69

Enlightened Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
6,007
Reaction score
5,965
Location
Barton City, Michigan
I admit to knowing little about guitar quality or qualities. However, there is no mention of sound or playability which are the most important things IMO.

Well, you hit it right on the head. Sound/tone is pretty much everything, at least for me. Sure, I like my guitars to be the best they can be cosmetically and tonally but a bit of roughness on the inside edge of the sound hole would likely not matter a great deal to me. But, we all have different thoughts on that type of thing I suspect. Kinda what makes the world go round I guess.
 

davismanLV

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
19,201
Reaction score
11,829
Location
U.S.A. : Nevada : Las Vegas
Guild Total
2
Purchased a Gibson Hummingbird Custom Shop 12 at GC in 2018 that I've been very satisfied with. It seems that about that time, more custom shop Gibsons were starting to appear in GC stores, and it was great to be able to test drive this particular guitar before pulling the trigger. This particular model was a GC exclusive from Montana. Fit & finish are exceptional; sounds great; no regrets.
I did switch out the Gibson electronics for a K&K passive system about six months later, but that was a matter of preference.
osxxcWo.jpg
[/IMG]

Bob
Hey Bob!! I really like your take and review. Everyone loves to bash and let's be honest, if the quality isn't there and all the p's and q's aint done then it's a problem. However, that guitar is beautiful!! Congrats on that one, amigo!! The thing is when I first moved to Las Vegas, I'm not sure what was going on at GC. NO IDEA!! And I played and bought one (non-Guild) and it's a super sweet guitar. But NEVER did we ever see Gibsons... at all!! I didn't know why and I was too busy playing my other stuff so then one day I walked into GC and suddenly there were Gibsons GALORE!! It was fun for me. And I had the best time playing those guitars!! And some were good, some were not. But then (because I have a bias and also a motto "no more dreads" to keep me on track) I looked around and there was a Gibson dread CUTAWAY (one of my least favorite combos) and I thought, oh hell. Honestly, it was one of the nicest and easiest playing and greatest sounding guitars ever!! Honest! But I had no money budgeted (it was super reasonable) and I just don't like a dread cutaway and ...... If money and my squirrely attitude wasn't a concern..... I'd have bought that guitar!! I'd also have done that for the Martin D42. The first one I played sounded like HEAVEN and the ANGELS came down from the sky and .... then I grabbed the one next to it..... one serial number difference and just as beautiful...... sounded like someone had stuffed a bath towel in it..... WTF??

The moral to this story is..... buy all the guitars that you really like... if you can. And now I'm OUT!! :encouragement: :encouragement:
 
Last edited:

dreadnut

Gone But Not Forgotten
Gone But Not Forgotten
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
16,082
Reaction score
6,442
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Guild Total
2
I don't love to bash - just reporting the facts. In my way if thinking, if they're not paying attention to obvious details that can be seen by the naked eye, what else did they muck up that I can't see?
 

geoguy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
3,519
Reaction score
1,640
Location
metrowest MA
IIRC, Ren Ferguson was quoted (sometime during his tenure with Guild) that if you wanted a good Gibson, don't expect to find it at GC.

Apparently better-quality guitars were shipped to other vendors.
 

dreadnut

Gone But Not Forgotten
Gone But Not Forgotten
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
16,082
Reaction score
6,442
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Guild Total
2
But why would they ship "lesser quality" guitars to anyone?

Sorry, but I have a 35-year background in Manufacturing and Quality, I was Quality Manager at a couple different firms. I learned to despise the concept of "final inspection." As if you can inspect quality into a product.
 

fronobulax

Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
24,708
Reaction score
8,836
Location
Central Virginia, USA
Guild Total
5
In my way if thinking, if they're not paying attention to obvious details that can be seen by the naked eye, what else did they muck up that I can't see?

I am the same kind of cynic. If I am paying new prices i have expectations above and beyond sound and tone. Different expectations for a used instrument but those cosmetic imperfections may have an impact on what price I would consider.
 

fronobulax

Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
24,708
Reaction score
8,836
Location
Central Virginia, USA
Guild Total
5
IIRC, Ren Ferguson was quoted (sometime during his tenure with Guild) that if you wanted a good Gibson, don't expect to find it at GC.

Apparently better-quality guitars were shipped to other vendors.

I'd love to see that quote in context because it doesn't make economic sense to deliberately ship an inferior product to a particular vendor.

That said, New Hartford had annual dealer events where dealers could come and hand pick the specific instruments that they wanted to sell. The guitars that were not handpicked were then released to other dealers as orders came in. It is real easy to speculate that the dealers picked out the best instruments and so the generalization that you got the best Guilds from dealers who attended the events and the inferior Guilds from other dealers seems true. I know if I walked into a store and the dealer showed me an instrument and said they personally picked it out at the factory I'd go with that instrument rather than order another one.

So Ren's story could have some truth and make sense if what is really happening is that other dealers picked out the guitars they sold whereas GC's order was just filled from whatever was in stock.
 

dreadnut

Gone But Not Forgotten
Gone But Not Forgotten
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
16,082
Reaction score
6,442
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Guild Total
2
Plus, I've seen the same issues on Gibson acoustics at other music stores over the past several years.

My buddy's uncle used to work at the Gibson factory in Kalamazoo, MI when nothing left the factory if it wasn't perfect. Great years for Gibson acoustic guitars and banjos, '60's and '70's.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,791
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
I'd love to see that quote in context because it doesn't make economic sense to deliberately ship an inferior product to a particular vendor.

That said, New Hartford had annual dealer events where dealers could come and hand pick the specific instruments that they wanted to sell. The guitars that were not handpicked were then released to other dealers as orders came in. It is real easy to speculate that the dealers picked out the best instruments and so the generalization that you got the best Guilds from dealers who attended the events and the inferior Guilds from other dealers seems true. I know if I walked into a store and the dealer showed me an instrument and said they personally picked it out at the factory I'd go with that instrument rather than order another one.

So Ren's story could have some truth and make sense if what is really happening is that other dealers picked out the guitars they sold whereas GC's order was just filled from whatever was in stock.

The comment was from Twocorgiis from a conversation he had with Ren at one of the LMGs, it was about one of his Gibsons but I don't recall which model right at the moment.
I've brought up that "sorting" scenario before myself, because of that comment. Edit: In fact I just saw he repeated it yesterday, in post #2 here:
I remember when I met Ren Ferguson at LMG III, and I mentioned how many underwhelming Gibson acoustics I had played at GC. He told me "Guitar center is not where you want to buy a Gibson", and that has always stayed with me.

I still think it's not unreasonable to suspect they may sort for "Very Good" examples (as opposed to sorting out sub-par examples) at some point near end of production, and maybe only for certain models.
Remember in Westerly for example one guy used to string up the flattops guitars (Don't think it was Hideglue, think it might have been WorkedinWesterly) and made the comment once that he was surprised sometimes that a piece he'd strung the day before that sounded like a dog had woken up overnight to discover it was a guitar, or something like that.
Anyway all I'm saying is that that would be a convenient opportunity to "sort for really good ones" without really adding to labor overhead.
For balance though your comment that perhaps Gibson also invites dealers to the plant to select their product has equal or maybe even better practicality for Gibson, and it'd be interesting to know if they actually do that.
Also I don't think it's as much "Deliberately shipping inferior product" as that it's the product that's just good enough to make the cut (by their standards) and gets sent to the warehouse for inventory for any old order as opposed to the examples they may set aside (or allow to be hand-picked) for certain dealers.
Wouldn't surprise me if they have a tier system for dealers with exceptional sales volume or history or even other criteria for recognition which allows them certain extra privileges from the factory.
It's not (or at least "wasn't", 20 years ago) uncommon in computer and car dealerships for example.
"Just putting it out there", not trying to "prove" anything.
In fact just saw yet another post from Beecee in that thread I linked above and perhaps what's really going on is this:
A local store that supplies a lot of student models is an authorized dealer for Bach, (as is GC), I spoke w/the gent who inspects and sets up all incoming...he says he will send back a few every year..even on a relatively high end trumpet there are duds.

Not to dump on GC but I don't think they would do that prior to sending one to me.
Along with Grassdog's comment which also seems to be a quite likely scenario and goes along with any number of reports here over the years:
As far as Ren's comment about Gibsons at GC, I'm guessing that he'd say that about any of the premium brands. In general, those places don't put a lot of effort in making sure the instruments are set up properly and strings are old and dead.
No judgements on anybody.
Just trying to figure out why GC would seem to be the purveyor of such a (comparatively) high percentage of what we would consider to be sub-par pieces.
 
Last edited:

fronobulax

Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
24,708
Reaction score
8,836
Location
Central Virginia, USA
Guild Total
5
Ren's GC comment could also be explained if he knew that GC just put guitars out on the sales floor with no inspection or setup, whereas other dealers would inspect first and possibly return less than perfect instruments.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,791
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
Ren's GC comment could also be explained if he knew that GC just put guitars out on the sales floor with no inspection or setup, whereas other dealers would inspect first and possibly return less than perfect instruments.

Right, was noting those comments in another thread I read after this one, even updated my post with it for "completeness"..
:smile:
Yeesh, now it's not just "read every post in the thread" before commenting, it's "read all new threads" before commenting...:glee:
 
Top