Please help my 1973 D50 find a new bridge.

sailingshoes72

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I can never figure out how someone with nothing more than a guitar's FON or SN can do anything crooked with it, unless they are etching it into different instruments and then finding complete idiots to sell to.

I think that there is a concern that someone may file a claim that they owned the guitar at a earlier time and it was stolen from them. Also, someone could post a fake listing to sell the guitar on an auction site in hopes that a buyer will forward them the cash!

Hans is completely trustworthy! :encouragement: I have forwarded him model numbers and serial numbers to get info on guitars that I own.
 
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cutrofiano

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...I can never figure out how someone with nothing more than a guitar's FON or SN can do anything crooked with it, unless they are etching it into different instruments and then finding complete idiots to sell to.

It's just like people who are paranoid showing a foto of their car with license plate.
As if not thousands of others could see it every day, and do - what? - with it :stung:
 

adorshki

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Shaving bridges should be illegal IMHO.
I was kind of in that camp originally but to be fair I can see it now as a viable alternative for a piece with a lot of sentimental value but that just wouldn't justify the cost of a reset, for example.
Or even if the owner simply couldn't afford the cost immediately but wanted to be able to play the instrument until he could, realizing the bridge would need to be addressed at that point, too.
 

Br1ck

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Well, I see your point, but someday someone wiil be here asking where he can get an original replacement. But there are lots of reasons for replacing a bridge with a slight oversize to hide cosmetic issues. I just take satisfaction in having a NOS genuine Guild bridge on my D 35, but then again, I do have about $1400 in a guitar I could sell for $1000 on a good day.
 

kostask

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Shaving a bridge does really make things complicated when the inevitable neck reset is done. The top of the bridge is the reference point for setting the neck. With the bridge shaved, there is NO reference point, so setting up the neck geometry to match the factory setup is not possible. Now, it could be said that there is nothing holy about the factory setup, and that is true, however, you have to have a starting point, and the top of the bridge is probably as good as it gets. Many here have said that the Guild factories set the neck angle, and then fitted the bridge with the correct height to ensure proper string angle and action. I have no reason to doubt that, as I don't know any different. That however, does lead to variations in bridge height, which also complicates neck resets. It ends up becoming "is that the factory bridge height that came with the guitar and happens to be on the low side of what the factory was using, or is it a higher bridge that was shaved down to avoid resetting the neck?". I am not a fan of the loosey-goosey bridge height specifications that the various Guild factories used, but on the other hand, most of the guitars sound great. If the Guild factories had settled on a standard bridge height, it would have made things a lot easier to determine. Say a standard bridge height at the front edge, in the middle of the bridge of 1/2". That way, a simple measurement with a ruler could determine if the bridge had been shaved down or changed, and would allow for all necks to have the same angle.
 
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adorshki

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Shaving a bridge does really make things complicated when the inevitable neck reset is done. The top of the bridge is the reference point for setting the neck.
K, I know you well enough to trust you know how things are done by other makers that I don't know, but the whole thing is that Guild just did it "their way", and I suspect there was good reason.
I'm guessing that neck-setting a glued dovetail is at best an imprecise process that by nature will yield a narrow range of acceptable angles, and that tailoring the bridge height to the neckset angle is in the end actually a "better way". Or maybe simply "easier".
In a reset, since the heel and dovetail get re-shaped a bit, there's every likelihood the original angle won't be exactly recreated in any case, and that the bridge may need to be R&R's to recreate proper intonation, too.
And Hans has said that in fact there was a period when Guild bridges were actually lower than what one would expect, although I don't remember what period it was.
It just demonstrates that they themselves didn't lock themselves into a "spec" bridge height, it's just the way it was, and I just gotta believe there was some kind of reasoning behind it.
Whether it would be seen as "legitimate reasoning" could be debated, I guess.
There's also Frank Ford's observation that the generally agreed "ideal combined bridge and saddle height" is about 1/2" with about 5/16" of that being bridge height, that would provide a starting neck alignment target, anyway.
It's the height that's been found to give the best trade-off between best string energy transfer good playability.
(also realize you probably already know that but there's new members lately who may not).
In any case, I just don't see not knowing original bridge height as being problematic.
It's a reset, I don't think anybody actually expects it to exactly replicate original factory neck angle, but only to restore original factory sound with good (replaced if needed) bridge height and action (playability), dictated by the saddle height.
I could be all wrong.
:tranquillity:
 

adorshki

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Well, I see your point, but someday someone wiil be here asking where he can get an original replacement.
LOL< yeah that's what this thread was about.
I knew "illegal" was humorous hyperbole, was just putting it out there primarily for the "hey some guys just can't afford anything else" POV.
But there are lots of reasons for replacing a bridge with a slight oversize to hide cosmetic issues. I just take satisfaction in having a NOS genuine Guild bridge on my D 35, but then again, I do have about $1400 in a guitar I could sell for $1000 on a good day.

In your case the utilitarian value of the playability and tone of the guitar exceeds the "market value" and is a prefect example of a guitar whose "sentimental value" justifies the expense of the restoration, to the owner.
I also actually suspect that over the years the expense will be more than offset by the use you get from it and market value could even appreciate due to quality of workmanship in a market where supply of truly excellent condition pieces is constantly shrinking, and new offerings become less and less comparable in quality of materials.
I suspect I'd love your D35 if I ever met it, and love seeing a nice old piece properly restored, both cars and guitars.
:smile:
 

kostask

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Al.

In high volume manufacturing, the way Guild did it is probably the fastest and most cost effective. In a high volume factory setting, it is not reasonable to have people hand fitting every neck joint on every single guitar. However, when designing a guitar, certain assumptions are made regarding string tension, from gauge (extra light, light, medium, etc.) and materials, to string break angle. When the bridge height varies, the string break angle does as well, which does have some effect on the string pressure being applied to the top, as does the overall weight of the bridge. Granted, all of this is probably minor, but it will result in deviation from the original guitar design, and makes each guitar have some variation in overall tone. I am not saying that this is large, but it is there, and may contribute to some guitars being "excellent", while others of the same model are merely "good".

When it comes to resets, I don't like it when bridges are shaved due to the loss of the reference point. A person looking at a perspective guitar purchase can sight down the neck (or use a straight edge) and see that the neck angle looks fine. If they are fairly new (leaves out most of the members of this board), they may not realize that the bridge has been shaved. They bring it down to their luthier to have it set up, and the luthier tells them that the guitar needs a neck set AND a new bridge to boot. I had this happen when I bought one of my first guitar purchases (a Lys L-18CW). The bridge was made of the darkest, most uniform piece of black ebony that I had ever seen; so black it didn't even look like wood, looked more like matte black plastic. I had the neck reset, and the bridge replaced.

None of this is the only way to do things, just my own opinion.
 
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adorshki

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Al.

...When the bridge height varies, the string break angle does as well,
That assumes saddle height has remains constant.
String break angle is a function of saddle height, the saddle height is adjusted to yield the maker's action height spec but within the small variation in bridge heights the saddle is normally tall enough to give a good break angle.
Bridges are shaved to allow saddles to sit clear enough of the bridge to bring back some break angle to otherwise too-low saddles, but that then brings on the risk of a split bridge when/if the saddle slot is deepened to keep it from leaning forward too much under string tension, no?.
The result is usually still a compromise since the ideal combined bridge/saddle height which is supposed to allow for max string energy transfer to top is now less than the 1/2" "ideal"
(which probably also varies according to scale length)

which does have some effect on the string pressure being applied to the top, as does the overall weight of the bridge. Granted, all of this is probably minor, but it will result in deviation from the original guitar design, and makes each guitar have some variation in overall tone. I am not saying that this is large, but it is there, and may contribute to some guitars being "excellent", while others of the same model are merely "good".
Makes sense to me.
When it comes to resets, I don't like it when bridges are shaved due to the loss of the reference point. A person looking at a perspective guitar purchase can sight down the neck (or use a straight edge) and see that the neck angle looks fine.
And that's why the alignment check is only valid if the bridge+saddle height is reasonably in the neighborhood of 1/2"; because we've discussed before that the alignment check can be "fooled" by a shaved bridge and I'd say anything more than 16th under that ideal 5/16" bridge height is cause for closer examination.
From here: http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html :
"This diagnostic method is very clear, but it doesn't account for the thickness of the bridge. If the bridge had been cut low in an effort to forestall neck angle work, then the straightedge might land right where it belongs on top of the bridge, but the neck angle may be less than ideal. I could measure the height of the bridge (not including the saddle) and hope that it's somewhere between 5/16" and 3/8," or I could use an even simpler method to check neck angle."
"If there's less than 3/8" between the string and the top, then there's neck angle trouble:"
"If the strings are this close to the top, it means that the saddle and/or bridge have been seriously lowered to compensate for a "shallow" neck angle."

My D25's about a 32nd under as built, and the '40's about that much over.
All of which is easily compensated for with saddle height and still yield good break angle, although with mine the combined heights are also approx. 1/32nd over/under as saddle height remained same but action is still factory 6/64th on bass E.
BY which one can deduce neckset angle on the '40 is little "steeper".
The converse is that some people have said about a piece posted for sale: "oh, the saddle's low, must need a re-set" when in fact the bridge height should be checked first, as the saddle is commonly shaved to lower action simply to suit an owner's preferences.
If they are fairly new (leaves out most of the members of this board), they may not realize that the bridge has been shaved. They bring it down to their luthier to have it set up, and the luthier tells them that the guitar needs a neck set AND a new bridge to boot.
Fair enough and I agree a shaved bridge is something that should be disclosed if the guitar's being sold (if the seller knows it), but this comes back to my original statement that I only see it as a viable alternative in limited circumstances: for a guitar for which the cost of a reset could never be justified except for "sentimental" reasons and/or to maintain playability until the owner can afford the full reset, with knowledge the bridge will need to be replaced at that time, too.
I realize now I should have been clearer that I meant this is for owners who intend to keep the instrument.
There's a lot of guys here who only have one, and I certainly wouldn't condemn 'em for shaving a bridge so they could at least keep playing until the could afford a reset on a guitar they never intend to sell, that's all.
I had this happen when I bought one of my first guitar purchases (a Lys L-18CW). The bridge was made of the darkest, most uniform piece of black ebony that I had ever seen; so black it didn't even look like wood, looked more like matte black plastic. I had the neck reset, and the bridge replaced.
Don't know about the inherent value of that guitar but yes it's definitely a shame to have to scrap a beautiful piece of wood like that. And for that I definitely agree it was probably a bad idea.

None of this is the only way to do things, just my own opinion.
Yeah our attitudes about the operation aren't mutually exclusive, and again I was only pointing out that I came around to seeing a couple of justifiable reasons for shaving a bridge but both of 'em were predicated on the owner intending to keep the instrument and genuinely needing to resort to the economy measure.
Counterpoint, sure it's entirely possible for a piece like that to wind up in an estate sale before the owner ever got the chance to get the reset done.
But if it wound up in Frank Ford's hands, or somebody like him, I suspect they would actually have enough brand knowledge to know what the original factory spec was for bridge height or else they'd resort to the generally accepted 1/2" combined b/s height.
 
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sailingshoes72

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Br1ck

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LOL< yeah that's what this thread was about.
I knew "illegal" was humorous hyperbole, was just putting it out there primarily for the "hey some guys just can't afford anything else" POV.


In your case the utilitarian value of the playability and tone of the guitar exceeds the "market value" and is a prefect example of a guitar whose "sentimental value" justifies the expense of the restoration, to the owner.
I also actually suspect that over the years the expense will be more than offset by the use you get from it and market value could even appreciate due to quality of workmanship in a market where supply of truly excellent condition pieces is constantly shrinking, and new offerings become less and less comparable in quality of materials.
I suspect I'd love your D35 if I ever met it, and love seeing a nice old piece properly restored, both cars and guitars.
:smile:

Considering we live no more than 20 miles from each other, that could be arranged.
 

adorshki

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Another factor to consider is the overall "mass" of the bridge. It is the bridge's job to set the soundboard in motion and then sustain those vibrations. Shaving the bridge will reduce mass and can change the "voice" of the guitar. Christopher Cozad tells a story about this here in a thread about bridge pins.

https://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?193990-Bridge-Pins&p=1772921&viewfull=1#post1772921
Right, and another reason I only consider it "acceptable" for certain situations, all based on owner economic necessity.
I see I could have been a little clearer about the relationship of break angle and combined B/S height:
Yes break angle, the angle between the back of the saddle and the string, affects how much string energy is transmitted to bridge.
The sharper the angle the more energy's transmitted, up to the point where it's too sharp and string breaks all the time.
This is why bridgepin holes are sometimes ramped or slotted, to increase break angle in a situation where the rest of geometry is still in good shape, ie good bridge height and action height.
I've trotted out this image
image-asset.png

from this overview
https://hazeguitars.com/blog/acoustic-guitar-tone-and-string-break-angle
a couple of times, for those to whom this all may be new.

Now, why the "ideal" 1/2" combined height?
It's simply the result of allowing for a thick (and massive) enough bridge to support a tall enough saddle that will yield both optimum energy transfer AND usable action height at the 12th fret of the most common scale sizes in the 24-26" ranges.
Neckset angles themselves are limited to a fairly narrow range when ergonomic considerations are accounted for; but in any case the bridge mass(and thus height) required to drive the top with a given string tension probably dictates the ideal angle, pretty much as Kostas said.
All fine guitar designs start with a decision about what total string set tension will be used, everything else is geared towards maximizing the energy produced by that tension: bridge mass, top thickness, bracing...it's all interrelated, the only constant is the set tension.
More from Frank Ford:
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/Saddle/saddle01.html



Considering we live no more than 20 miles from each other, that could be arranged.

Yeah it's just that my only real free time is on Saturdays and even that's pretty much dedicated to the GF after early AM shopping.
But it's in the back of my mind, especially after I retire.
Otherwise I probably would have pm'd a "let's get together" suggestion.
 

cutrofiano

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And here they are sanding down the brand new bridge (31:49) :nightmare: :smile-new:



They should warn people buying new Takamines:
Caution: Bridge has been sanded down!

33:48 is where I personally start to cry...

Moritz
 
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