Tell me what you like for strings on a '68 F-112

gilded

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Hi Guys and Gals,

I am digging my little '68 F-112. Here are my initial observations:

This guitar needed frets and a neck re-set, but it also wasn't played for a few years. I know it came out of someone's eststate. Also, it had a Big Honking Set of Schaller M6 tuners on it. It must have been a real struggle to play for any length of time without the heavy headstock nose-diving to the floor. It was way more than a chore to play it with Big Schallers in place.

My remedy? Change the tuners to mini6 Schallers and play it a little bit every day.

But, something still seemed wrong. When I received the guitar from my old friend 'Luthier A', the strings didn't sound good to me. I took the guitar to another Luthier (we've all been friends for 30 years; nobody is mad that a customer is dissappearing) and said,

"Luthier B' I don't like the way it sounds. Why don't you play it and tell me what you think is wrong?"

'Luthier B' played it and said,

"The strings feel real heavy and I think they are muffling the top."

We measured the strings and they were .13" thru .56" 'Luthier B' said that he liked using D'Addario EJ38 light strings. Their measurements were .10" thru .47"

We put the light strings on the F-112. There was a difference. They didn't make the guitar sound louder, but it sure felt better and was easier to play. You can also hear the complexity and articulation of the notes in a very pleasing way, the way 50 year old spruce and mahogany should sound.


So, what do you folks use for acoustic 12 string guitars?
 

Westerly Wood

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it has been a while re me and 12 strings, but i remember being a fan of D'Addario PB lights for my F212XL i had once, and lights being .10-.47 gauge wise.
 

mavuser

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i use 9's. have tried several brands. would recommend Dean Markley "Vintage Bronze," or D'addario
 

adorshki

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"Luthier B' I don't like the way it sounds. Why don't you play it and tell me what you think is wrong?"

'Luthier B' played it and said,

"The strings feel real heavy and I think they are muffling the top."
I been sayin' that for years, that just going to heavier strings doesn't mean a guitar will sound better.
We measured the strings and they were .13" thru .56" 'Luthier B' said that he liked using D'Addario EJ38 light strings. Their measurements were .10" thru .47"
And wouldn't you know it this became what Guild themselves started shipping all 12-ers with by at least '96, and not sure but suspect started in early '90's.
We put the light strings on the F-112. There was a difference. They didn't make the guitar sound louder, but it sure felt better and was easier to play. You can also hear the complexity and articulation of the notes in a very pleasing way, the way 50 year old spruce and mahogany should sound.
Exactly.
My personal suspicion is that you've already found the best strings, as D'Addario was Guild's OEM supplier for many years.
In fact, Guild was the first to install their PB sets as standard equipment on their guitars.
Even saw a report once that first year JF30-12's were shipped with Silk'n'steels and they were a popular option in early '70's for that "folky" sound, exactly what F30's and F112's were used for a lot.
Guild even still listed 'em in their price lists in '87 which seemed to corroborate that JF30-12 report.
So, what do you folks use for acoustic 12 string guitars?
Though not a 12-string player myself, my recent experiments with re-voicing my F65ce were based on considerations of how alloy and total set tension influence a guitar's voice and the principles are the same for 12-strings.
See post #18 here for starters where Guildedagain refers to his own experience with both the F112 and the F30:
https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?172146-D-Addario-extra-light-strings-on-F512/page3
In post #22 I linked to another thread which goes into more conjecture about top tension, which drove my process of elimination and selection.
Here's the gist of it:
...but when I researched the design tension for the top I realized that simply tuning down even a whole step on heavier strings doesn't necessarily lower total set tension on the top, and .011's are the minimum gauge I can play without shredding my nails.
Had already been playing with .011's in PB tuned down for about a year and it was still too bright, action height was never an issue for me.
So was looking to see if there was a set of Silk'n'Steel that would enable all 3 ideals: Lower tension, "beefy enough", and warmer than pb.
Here's how I figured out what gauge to go with:
I looked up the set tension of the standard pb .010's it came with: Ej-15's, at 133.25 lbs.
EJ26 Custom lights come in at 119lbs when tuned down a whole, but guitar still sounded too bright and suspected not only the alloy but maybe still "too tight".
Was trying to do some educated narrowing of the field without all the time and expense of just trying a bunch of different strings out.
And remember, if this thing was designed for extra lights, I didn't want to overstress the top, the bridge already showed that tell-tale unglued edge separation at the back.
I never knew if it was a build flaw or the result of stringing it with .012's for a couple of years, naively thinking: "It's a Guild, it can take it."
(It HAS remained stable for the 15 years since I discovered it)
NOW I think they actually intended for it to be slightly under-driven but couldn't string it with anything lighter, from OEM supplier D'Addario, anyway.
:glee:
Remember also the whole series of Fxxce's were originally designed with 24-3/4" scale, an inherently lower tension; the inherently higher-tensioned 25-5/8" scale wasn't introduced (on F65ce's at least), until late '94.
Sure there was a bracing change to accommodate the bridge/soundhole relocation mandated by the new scale length, but now suspect it resulted in the overly bright (to a mic) sound.
Anyway, on the GHS site https://www.ghsstrings.com/products?categories=acoustic I could calculate that tuning down a whole step reduced tension by approx. 20%, then looked for a set of Silk'n'Steel that would still come in lower, after tuning down a whole step, than the tension it was designed for .
Bingo.
The S & S Mediums gave me an .011 even though I would have preferred a little beefier bottoms, but it was the heaviest thing offered in S & S, in any case.
Tension when dropped a whole step was 112lbs.
So I placed my bet and collected the payout.
In fact the S'n'S "mediums" are .011-.048 and much lower tension than Ej-16's or comparable pb mediums, and at a full step down, lower tension than factory-spec extra light pb's, which was part of the goal, to get a bit lower tension and still be able to use an .011 for the sake of my poor fingernails.
So in fact if anything the neck may have even tended to bow back a bit, due to lowered tension, but it came at factory spec height of 6/64ths and hasn't been lowered.
I took that into account when considering whether to tweak the truss and decided to leave it alone.
Oh waitaminnit, there was the slightest amount of string grooving on the saddle when I put on the new strings, sanded it down with ultra-fine emery board, couldn't have been more than a few thousandths.
The other hypothesis being tested was to see what happens when simply driving the top at a lower baseline frequency, the "D" as opposed to the "E".
As Tom's pointed out before, it introduces just a tiny bit of intonation wonkiness but the strings had about 2 hours on 'em by the time that was recorded (last weekend) and were settled in pretty well.
After all that realized that strings are a whole lot more fun to experiment around with that I ever suspected.
The drawback? For sure silk and steels have about half the life of PB's.
And last weekend I had reason to listen to 10-year+ old good recordings of all 3 of my guitars and they definitely all sounded better at standard pitch with factory spec strings (uncoated PB) than I had remembered, but to be fair the F65ce was at its best playing solos against the D25.
But I'd start with the silk'n'steels as being the next most likely noticeably different voice modifier for an F112.
Of course you may have entirely different sonic goals but it's nice to be aware of what the limitations for a given guitar are and knowing set tensions is one way to be sure you're not overstressing it.
 
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wileypickett

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It all depends on what you use your 12-string for. There's no "one size fits all" answer.

If you use it to accompany vocals, or to play with other players, you probably tune your guitar to standard pitch (or a step below) and play in standard tuning. If so, Lights will certainly get the job done

I play only in open tunings, and I tune way low -- the E string down to B. (I'm an instrumental player -- I don't sing -- and I mostly play solo.)

For me, Lights are too flimsy (in feel, and sound-wise) and they're terrible for low tunings. I use D'Addario EJ37s (12-54) and find they work best for what I do. They still drive the top in low tunings, there's still plenty of growl in the bass, good articulation between the strings, and the pressure feels right under my fingers. (I like a little resistance, and as I play hard, I need a certain level of tautness to keep the strings from buzzing.)

Your mileage may vary, to quote the Bard.
 

mavuser

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i use 9's. have tried several brands. would recommend Dean Markley "Vintage Bronze," or D'addario

i should add to this i only play in standard tuning/concert pitch. i would use 10's if de-tuning a half, or a whole, step!
 

12 string

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.010-.047 for standard tuning, increased or decreased for alternative lower or higher tunings, keeping overall tension about the same.

' Strang
 

gilded

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Wow, ask my baby for a nickel, get a hundred dollar bill!
Lot of good info, thank you.
gilded
 

F312

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I use D'Addario 10-47 coated, on all my remaining 12 string guitars, except the Rickenbacker 360 12, all tuned down a full step.

Ralph
 
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