Starfire III-Replacement bridge for Tune-o-matic with Guildsby?

I am loving the NS SF III I bought last year. I am NOT loving the Tune-o-Matic perched atop a Rosewood floating bridge that came stock.

REASONS:

1. The Guildsby acts as a lowering bar. It pulls the string action down.

Ergo:

2. Additional height is needed somewhere after the Guildsby pulls the strings down. Otherwise, the frets buzz. So either the wooden bridge or the Tune-o-matic needs to be higher.

Also, I don't like the mechanics of the Tune-o-Matic.

Is there a good replacement bridge that will solve the string height problem?

Is there a cleaner, more efficiently-designed bridge than the Tune-o-Matic?

You should be able to adjust the TOM up or down on its rosewood base via its height adjustment thumb-wheels. Beyond that I've found making a TOM behave with a vibrato involves (careful) saddle filing to minimize string hangup.

IMO the TOM is an outdated design that survives mainly due to our veneration of certain "Golden Era" guitars that came equipped with it (and our desire for molecular-level accurate repros of said guitars). The Schaller-designed "Harmonica" bridge of the 1970s is a better design, as is the late '70s/early '80s Ibanez variant. Also, I replaced my NS Aristocrat's TOM at first string change with a '50s Valco rosewood bridge (fixed intonation pattern, of course) and will hopefully get hold of an old Guild bridge at some point to do the job properly.

-Dave-

Quantum Strummer said:

You should be able to adjust the TOM up or down on its rosewood base via its height adjustment thumb-wheels. Beyond that I've found making a TOM behave with a vibrato involves (careful) saddle filing to minimize string hangup.

IMO the TOM is an outdated design that survives mainly due to our veneration of certain "Golden Era" guitars that came equipped with it (and our desire for molecular-level accurate repros of said guitars). The Schaller-designed "Harmonica" bridge of the 1970s is a better design, as is the late '70s/early '80s Ibanez variant. Also, I replaced my NS Aristocrat's TOM at first string change with a '50s Valco rosewood bridge (fixed intonation pattern, of course) and will hopefully get hold of an old Guild bridge at some point to do the job properly.

-Dave-

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Thanks.

I sure agree with the 'outdated design' part. It's misnamed too. Nothing 'o-matic' about ít.
The problem I have ís the poles are extended to the max right now. No buzz but what about a year down the road? There will be no room to adjust.

Some Bigsbys have an additional tension bar that could raise the strings. I'll need to get a thicker wooden bridge most likely.

Tune-o-matics have the advantage of being pretty stable and having good sustain. You can do much worse, I assure you.

I'm having trouble understanding why the Bigsby should affect the height of the strings over the frets? do you mean you don't have enough break angle over the bridge? the problem may well be the neck or the neck joint. can you post a pic to clarify?

I can't attach photos here. So I have to upload it to my website. I bought my guitar from Seeetwater. It was decently set up w/.11's. Nothing wrong w/the tail piece or the bridges. The Guildsby height looks correct. It looks like this (Se link below).

BTW, I'd like to know what some of those 'worse choices' are. Everything players recommend seems a variation of the Tune-o-Matic. Even w/o the height issue, I'd want to get rid of the ToM.

https://www.altomusic.com/media/cat...0972d/g/u/guild-379240086603-4/3792005866.jpg

Let's see if I can link to your photo, here:

I'm confused. I feel like I'm not understanding something here.

In that picture, the bridge looks like it's as low as it can be. Also, the second roller on some Bigsbys doesn't raise the string height. The Bigsby shouldn't really have any effect on the string height.

The TOM is a great design. I can't think of another bridge that would fix these issues.

If the TOM is raised as high as it can go and the string action is still too low, the issue is most likely the guitar.

Starfire IV here with a Compton bridge. I'm not sure of any difference in neck angle or how that would affect your application. But the Guildsbys are both B6 type. Compton fit on the original NS bridge base and there have been no issues whatever.

IMO Gotoh's version of the Nashville bridge—greater saddle adjustment range, no need for a retainer—is a good one. TonePros offers a variant of it with locking grub screws.

I think the OP's issue is: he needs to set the bridge low for good playing action, but this interferes with good vibrato behavior. IOW it comes down to neck angle…too shallow.

-Dave-

marcellis said:

I can't attach photos here. So I have to upload it to my website. I bought my guitar from Seeetwater. It was decently set up w/.11's. Nothing wrong w/the tail piece or the bridges. The Guildsby height looks correct. It looks like this (Se link below).

BTW, I'd like to know what some of those 'worse choices' are. Everything players recommend seems a variation of the Tune-o-Matic. Even w/o the height issue, I'd want to get rid of the ToM.

https://www.altomusic.com/media/cat...0972d/g/u/guild-379240086603-4/3792005866.jpg

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yeah, also still confused,

"1. The Guildsby acts as a lowering bar. It pulls the string action down.

Ergo:

2. Additional height is needed somewhere after the Guildsby pulls the strings down. Otherwise, the frets buzz. So either the wooden bridge or the Tune-o-matic needs to be higher. "

How does the Guildsby BEHIND the bridge affect the height of the action on the OTHER side of the bridge? it doesn't. it can make the break angle shallow which means lower tension and less transfer of string vibration into the bridge (and can increase the influence of behind the bridge harmonics, which I personally like), but it won't affect the actual string height over the frets.

So I mean your first proposition is erroneous, so of course your "ergo" is erroneous, so it's hard to know where to go from there

But, if we're talking about the break angle being too shallow then that can make the strings buzzy. With 11s on up that isn't usually a problem because of higher tension. A lot of Guilds historically have quite a shallow break angle. Short of resetting the neck (very expensive) there isn't much you can to alter it without raising the action.

By the way, if you didn't already REMOVE THAT PIECE OF FOAM. I'm sure you did

To answer your question, personally I don't use a TOM, I use a Bigsby bridge which I like and I think has great sustain. Others don't, it's really horses for courses and a slightly expensive experimental period is sometimes the best option. In my view, if I bought a modern Starfire I would immediately dump the bridge and put in an all aluminium (metal base as well) Bigsby bridge.

Worse than a TOM I would number a Jazzmaster bridge, a Rickenbacker bridge, and the roller bridges that came standard on some 70s Guilds for starters. At least a TOM doesn't suck sustain.

It may be there is a neck or fret issue w/the guitar. I just had it set up though. The easiest thing I think is to get a thicker floating bridge.

I don't recall it coming w/foam under the bridge. Foam is gone at any rate. I played it tonight. ToM poles may have a screw turn or 3 left. But's it's too high for my comfort.

Action is fine. I could put .12's on it I guess. The ToM isn't at fault for the height issue. I just don't like the design. I'll be checking the Gotoh's. Maybe I just need slightly longer posts? That would be easy enough if I could find them.

I've spent decades playing acoustic flat-tops and a big archtop w/a floating bridge & floating HB p'up. Adjustments were easy. The electric guitar world is new to me. I've never dealt with metal bridges before.

marcellis said:

ToM poles may have a screw turn or 3 left. But's it's too high for my comfort.

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Oh, I see I've misunderstood you. You have the bridge up high but the strings are still bottoming out when you use the Guildsby…is this right? If so…hmmm. A taller bridge, such as an aluminum Bigsby, oughta help…assuming the extra height doesn't spoil your playing action. I'd also second p_k's suggestion to move up a string gauge. Maybe try the thicker strings first.

(BTW, I've found the heavier strings approach works well with Jazzmaster (& Jaguar), Rickie and Müller bridges too.)

-Dave-

Hmm...this is a tricky one. Not to assign blame, etc; I know you just had the guitar set-up...but....not all set-ups are equal. Are the nut slots the optimum depth/angle ? (the slots on my NS Guild 175B needed to be lowered). Sometimes when the nut is too high, too much relief is dialed into the neck to compensate. If the nut is right, the frets are level and the bridge saddles are properly radiused to match the 9.5" fretboard radius (NS Guilds tend to have the saddles properly radiused from the factory) then the neck can be set-up with a minimum of relief allowing the bridge to be set a bit higher. Of course, if you have a guitar with an unusually shallow neck set angle that's a different issue entirely. If the neck set is too shallow you might need to change out the stock B-6 style Guildsby for a B7 style with the tension bar. I'm guessing B7 style Guildsby's are not easy to come by but you never know. You just might want to get a second in-hand opinion from a good pro luthier.

Guildadelphia said:

You just might want to get a second in-hand opinion from a good pro luthier.

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Just to save M. the typing, he's in Viet Nam and has been using one guy I ever since I've been a member.
His "guy" builds arch tops and also managed to work a 1-11/16 nut into the 1-5/8 slot of his F65ce, amongst other work, so I think he's got 100% confidence in the quality of work.
It does occur to me that high humidity might be causing some shift in geometry in a guitar like an NS Starfire though, so it might be worth getting it checked out again?

adorshki said:

Just to save M. the typing, he's in Viet Nam and has been using one guy I ever since I've been a member.
His "guy" builds arch tops and also managed to work a 1-11/16 nut into the 1-5/8 slot of his F65ce, amongst other work, so I think he's got 100% confidence in the quality of work.
It does occur to me that high humidity might be causing some shift in geometry in a guitar like an NS Starfire though, so it might be worth getting it checked out again?

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Actually, I'm back in the States now. That's bad as far as finding a good luthier who doesn't take a year and cost a fortune. In Saigon, there was Guitar Street. Lots of good luthiers, competent, fast and cheap.

Now I'm living on the Redeck Riviera. I just had a set-up and strings changed locally. I spelled out exactly what was bothering me - the bridge height. he said he'd fix it and likely swap out the wooden bridge for a thicker one. It would take a week. 4 weeks later, the strings were changed. But he forgot the part about a new wooden bridge. On the plus side, it was intonated properly. He did a decent job setting up my big VN archtop earlier this year too.

I will try to post some pics. No time right now.

marcellis said:

Actually, I'm back in the States now.

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Oops!! Defeated my primary purpose, didn't I?
But is this permanent or just another "visit"?
What about the bistro?

adorshki said:

Oops!! Defeated my primary purpose, didn't I?
But is this permanent or just another "visit"?
What about the bistro?

Click to expand...

Thanks for the thought. Wife is here. She still has the lease on Gumbo's. Other folks are renting from her. I taught 'em how to cook the signature dishes though.

I may may have to go back temporarily soon. Don't plan on staying. It's an open question if I'll go back to live some day. I forgot what life was like in the States. I went to a music store and bought a keyboard stand. It came in a box. They expected me to construct it. Life is tough in the old US of A.

One reason I don't like the ToM is I can't pay someone $10 to set it up right. I saw the front-end screws and thought, "There's got to be a better alernative,".

Just my opinion, but REALLY...take the time to learn how to set up your bridge, saddle, intonation, string changes and minor nut adjustments. You will be SO happy you did! You will save yourself a lot of time and money, be able to change things immediately, experiment with different strings, bridges, etc...and NOT be at the mercy of someone else's schedule. And it's not difficult!

I have installed TOMs on all my archtops...Gretsch's mostly, and love them! I'm going to do it on my X160 Rockabilly too! That way I can adjust for plain G or wound G strings.

Here's the deal, you need to have adequate string break angle behind the bridge for proper intonation, playability, stability and Bigsby usage. On some guitars, their geometry doesn't allow for it, so Bigsby came up with the tension bar model that you see on many guitars. It works fine...a little stiffer than the original, but it does give the benefit of increased sustain and keeps the floating bridge anchored, and keeps the strings from popping out of the saddles under hard playing!

MY X160 Rockabilly was made in Corona. It came with a Bigsby bridge and saddle as well (compensated for a plain G...which is why I had to do a lot of research...its all documented here on another thread, so I won't rehash it all here). Guild/Fender at Corona changed the neck angle from the previous X160 Westerly-made (and as a result, had to use spacers under the pickups to keep the pickups relatively close to the strings.) That way they could raise the bridge to increase the bridge break angle. GREAT idea! Works wonders! Keeps the action nice and low and still has nice break angle after the bridge.

However, the design of the Bigsby saddle is just plain weird. The bottom is somewhat rounded, supposed to help with vibrato usage...so it's designed to rock on the thumb-wheels on the posts...and uses shorter mounting poles to facilitate the rocking motion. The problem is, there's no "zero" to return to, so tuning is not stable. AND...if you play too hard, you knock the saddle off the short posts!

I found taller mounting screws online and modified them to work and it really helps stabilize the bridge and tuning. But, with the Bigsby saddle, I'm stuck with plain G string intonation. It's not horrible, but it's not exact. So, I'll be changing to a TOM.

BUT...and here's the big butt...not all TOMs are created equal! I only use ABR-1. Their quality is consistent! Too many of the knock-off ones are just not good...they rattle, you lose sustain, they're just not good quality. So be careful.

AND...with a TOM you are free to change string gauges at whim and intonate the guitar to your heart's content! And that's why you should learn to do it yourself!

Just my opinion...but going from a TOM (a REAL TOM) to a Bigsby is going backwards!

The Retro Rocker said:

Just my opinion...but going from a TOM (a REAL TOM) to a Bigsby is going backwards!

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Fantastic post, especially that part about the change of geometry on Corona Rockabillys.
Corona info's pretty sparse and it supported your advice wonderfully, besides.

marcellis said:

Actually, I'm back in the States now. That's bad as far as finding a good luthier who doesn't take a year and cost a fortune. In Saigon, there was Guitar Street. Lots of good luthiers, competent, fast and cheap.

Now I'm living on the Redeck Riviera. I just had a set-up and strings changed locally. I spelled out exactly what was bothering me - the bridge height. he said he'd fix it and likely swap out the wooden bridge for a thicker one. It would take a week. 4 weeks later, the strings were changed. But he forgot the part about a new wooden bridge. On the plus side, it was intonated properly. He did a decent job setting up my big VN archtop earlier this year too.

I will try to post some pics. No time right now.

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Where is the Redneck Riviera? I grew up in Tallahassee, FL and we used to refer to Panama City by that moniker.