Nitrocellulose vs. Other Finishes

cjd-player · Feb 25, 2011

Yes, unfortunately Nitrocellulous lacquer can check by just being exposed to cold temperature. The lacquer shrinks more than the wood, so it has to crack. That's why Frank Ford calls them "Cold Checks". I'm sure he has seen his fair share of them.

As an aside, that's why it makes no sense to me that companies like Guild and Gibson stay with Nitro lacquer.
Modern finishes are so far superior in durability and resistance to checking.
I did a quick search on the Acoustic Guitar Forum because I remembered some threads there about finishes. According to several folks on the forum, these companies have all gone away from Nitro lacquer:
Taylor, Larrivee, Goodall, Huss & Dalton, Bourgeois, Collins, Martin on many except the "traditional" models, and too many independent luthiers, such as James Olson and Rick Turner, to mention. It seems that only Gibson and Guild are holding on to Nitro exclusively.
I won't buy the argument that a Nitro finish sounds better 'cause so many independent luthiers who make guitars costing upwards of 5 grand have gone away from nitro. It's an old, obsolete finish material.

capnjuan · Feb 25, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

Hi Carl; not to split hairs but considering all the nitro-finished guitars that are out there, the somewhat infrequent occurrence (LTG owners own more than 500 guitars ... as many as 10 with cracks? ... 2%?), and the fact that at some point nearly every guitar was in an unheated truck trailer or a cargo hold of an airplane, it's hard to believe that all the guitars that don't have cracks were never exposed to temperatures below some given threshold.

I guess I'm saying that maybe the physical properties of nitro are more likely to be a problem when the rate of temperature change is rapid; that is, if temperature were the only determinant, then you'd expect finish fractures to be more frequent than they seem. Another explanation for why some guitars withstand low temperature better than others might be batch-to-batch variations in the chemistry of the nitro; a little more of this ... a little less of than ... Otherwise, I don't disagree about the virtues of other finishes. Just got back from the mailbox ... my Physics degree still isn't here.

cjd-player · Feb 25, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

John, it would be an interesting poll to see how many LTG guitars have finish cracks.

I'm sure you are right that many guitars have been subjected to cold without a checking problem. Rate of temperature change may be a factor.
I also suspect that you are absolutely correct about differences between batches of nitro. Some batches may be less flexible than others. Even the drying time and sanding between coats may have an effect as well. The total age of the finish may also have something to do with it. It can take many months (I've even heard some experts say "years") for a nitro finish to fully cure and shrink. So the age when it was exposed to cold, and how cold could also be variables. Kinda makes you head spin with what-ifs. :mrgreen:

Just too many unknowns and potential problems, such as contact with vinyl, to convince me that it should still be used.

hideglue · Feb 25, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

cjd-player said:
I won't buy the argument that a Nitro finish sounds better... It's an old, obsolete finish material.

Sonic differences are subjective; much like Wooly Mammoth pins and fairy dust. And while credible manufacturers and
builders have successfully made the step to alternative finishes (Guild actually made a half-hearted attempt at UV finish in the '90s), I still think lacquer is a repairman's best friend. Obsolete? I hope not.

capnjuan · Feb 25, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

In another thread, Herr Rockin' Doktor asked why if bolt-on necks are so good, then why mess with dove-tails? Since I'm not licensed to answer, I didn't say anything but 'that's the way it's always been done' came to mind in a hurry ... Isn't that pretty much the deal with nitro?

It's not hard to imagine an experienced player swearing up and down that there's significant difference in tone between nitro and other finishes ... but it is hard to imagine three people - listening to a player behind a screen switching back and forth between two identical guitars except for differences in finish - concluding that they heard any substantive differences.

Can one man's obsession really be nonsense to three other people? (I think that's what Graham used to call a rhetorical question :wink: )

hideglue · Feb 25, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

...and each sprayed to equal thinness. I think the usual argument is that Poly is sprayed too heavily, while Nitro can be applied and finished much closer to the guitar's bare resonance. And that was certainly true not-too-long ago. But as Carl stated, reputable manufacturers and revered builders alike are getting really good at closing the gap... some already have.

cjd-player · Feb 25, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

capnjuan said:
In another thread, Herr Rockin' Doktor asked why if bolt-on necks are so good, then why mess with dove-tails? Since I'm not licensed to answer, I didn't say anything but 'that's the way it's always been done' came to mind in a hurry ... Isn't that pretty much the deal with nitro?

It's not hard to imagine an experienced player swearing up and down that there's significant difference in tone between nitro and other finishes ... but it is hard to imagine three people - listening to a player behind a screen switching back and forth between two identical guitars except for differences in finish - concluding that they heard any substantive differences.

Can one man's obsession really be nonsense to three other people? (I think that's what Graham used to call a rhetorical question :wink: )

The same can be said for cutaways. The problem is in building two supposedly identical guitars with only one variable such as type of finish, neck joint, or cutaway. It's essentially impossible to isolate one variable to determine it's effect. Two guitars of the same model, with everything supposedly the same, will sound different.

That's why I like Guild's slogan "Made to be played". Some folks spend too much time obsessing over nuances about how a guitar is built. I'm all for and generally embrace advances in materials and design when they make obvious sense
(anybody want to carry around one of these)

and I'm opposed to holding on to traditions for tradition's sake if something can be done so much better using a new material or a new design.

fronobulax · Feb 25, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

cjd-player said:
if something can be done so much better using a new material or a new design.

So... Ovation?

:wink:

Graham · Feb 25, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

cjd-player said:
(anybody want to carry around one of these)

I carried one of those for a few months in the early 90's. My hip still aches!

capnjuan · Feb 25, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

Graham said:
cjd-player said:

(anybody want to carry around one of these)

Click to expand...

I carried one of those for a few months in the early 90's. My hip still aches!

Mrs. Juan had a bag phone ... what a bag of ...

cjd-player · Feb 25, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

fronobulax said:
cjd-player said:

if something can be done so much better using a new material or a new design.

Click to expand...

So... Ovation?

:wink:

I said "better" not just different. :wink: :mrgreen:

geoguy · Feb 25, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

My first cell phone was a bag phone, too . . . more convenient than looking for a pay phone whenever you needed to make a call, but not by much!

capnjuan · Feb 26, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

hideglue said:
...and each sprayed to equal thinness. I think the usual argument is that Poly is sprayed too heavily, while Nitro can be applied and finished much closer to the guitar's bare resonance. And that was certainly true not-too-long ago. But as Carl stated, reputable manufacturers and revered builders alike are getting really good at closing the gap... some already have.

Guild F50 promo YouTube vid that Brad posted in another thread; Dave Gonzalez talking about the virtues of nitrocellulose at 3:35 " ... helps the guitar breathe ... helps it be more resonant ... " More resonant than what; poly?

I wonder if there's any science at work here. I can understand Guild wanting to use it because it's traditional but the suggestion is that they actually checked it out ... anybody really think they have a lab report on the subject?

West R Lee · Feb 26, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

cjd-player said:
capnjuan said:

In another thread, Herr Rockin' Doktor asked why if bolt-on necks are so good, then why mess with dove-tails? Since I'm not licensed to answer, I didn't say anything but 'that's the way it's always been done' came to mind in a hurry ... Isn't that pretty much the deal with nitro?

It's not hard to imagine an experienced player swearing up and down that there's significant difference in tone between nitro and other finishes ... but it is hard to imagine three people - listening to a player behind a screen switching back and forth between two identical guitars except for differences in finish - concluding that they heard any substantive differences.

Can one man's obsession really be nonsense to three other people? (I think that's what Graham used to call a rhetorical question :wink: )

Click to expand...

The same can be said for cutaways. The problem is in building two supposedly identical guitars with only one variable such as type of finish, neck joint, or cutaway. It's essentially impossible to isolate one variable to determine it's effect. Two guitars of the same model, with everything supposedly the same, will sound different.

That's why I like Guild's slogan "Made to be played". Some folks spend too much time obsessing over nuances about how a guitar is built. I'm all for and generally embrace advances in materials and design when they make obvious sense
(anybody want to carry around one of these)

and I'm opposed to holding on to traditions for tradition's sake if something can be done so much better using a new material or a new design.

Funny you should mention that Carl.....in fact, I've found that the same guitar can sound totally different in the hands of two different players. But having said that, from what I've read over the years, I'm inclined to be a proponent of nitro......sorry ol' buddy.

I'm sure companies like Taylor would be quick to point out the "benefits" of poly (hard as a rock), but I try to keep in mind that they use it because it's much quicker, easier and cheaper to apply....as do several manufacturers now. Since they use it, they sell the idea.....makes life much easier for them, and if I were cranking out as many guitars as Taylor is, I'd use something fast and easy too.

West

Darryl Hattenhauer · Feb 26, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

re: poly vs nitro

reputable manufacturers and revered builders alike are getting really good at closing the gap... some already have.

This is good news, folks.

West R Lee · Feb 26, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

hideglue said:
...and each sprayed to equal thinness. I think the usual argument is that Poly is sprayed too heavily, while Nitro can be applied and finished much closer to the guitar's bare resonance. And that was certainly true not-too-long ago. But as Carl stated, reputable manufacturers and revered builders alike are getting really good at closing the gap... some already have.

:lol: Now who can argue with that? Sorry Hide, hadn't read up. Interesting. But if you do say.... a neck reset, do poly finishes touch up like nitro?

West

FNG · Feb 26, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

http://www.taylorguitars.com/global/pdf ... h_line.pdf

Good read from Taylor's persepctive. Seems nitro has some air pollution issues, and poly makes it easier to mitigate those issues.

West R Lee · Feb 26, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

I think I've answered my own question to Hideglue on pulling the finish during a reset. When I stop and think about it, most of the poly finish manufacturers finish the neck, usually in a matte finish, and attach it after the body of the guitar is finished, so there are no finish pulling problems on many poly finished guitars during a reset. I still am curious about repairing finish blemishes on a poly guitar?

West

West R Lee · Feb 26, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

FNG said:
http://www.taylorguitars.com/global/pdfs/finish_line.pdf

Good read from Taylor's persepctive. Seems nitro has some air pollution issues, and poly makes it easier to mitigate those issues.

As I recall, that was the reason some Corona, maybe all Corona (?) built guitars had poly finishes. I think California outlawed it or something several years ago.

:lol: Every piece of wood in my home's interior is finished with nitrocellulose lacquer. Imagine how good it will sound in 20 years :wink: . They say the most adverse effect is that it will make you hard-headed..........I take issue with that and will never buy into it!

I read the article you posted Effin, but I didn't read anything about the sonic attributes of poly, only that Taylor's research has taught them how to apply a thinner coat........and a whole bunch about making the finish process faster, easier, and allowing them to continue to do business in California, making them one of the few companies not looking to move to Texas or Florida from California :twisted: .

West

fronobulax · Feb 26, 2011

Re: Completed the set! Updated with a slight tale of woe!

West R Lee said:
:lol: Every piece of wood in my home's interior is finished with nitrocellulose lacquer. Imagine how good it will sound in 20 years :wink: . They say the most adverse effect is that it will make you hard-headed..........I take issue with that and will never buy into it!

West

How long didja say you'd been livin' there?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Nitrocellulose vs. Other Finishes

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