What were the best years for Starfire IVs and Vs?

parker_knoll

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
1,453
Reaction score
410
Location
London
I don´t understand the edginess of this discussion, however permanent magnets don´t lose their charge therefore it´s relatively easy to differentiate A2 from A5.
The gripe about the pickups goes back to an error made in duplicating the old ones when the LB1s started being reproduced in Korea almost a decade ago.

Vintage LB1s had a stronger bridge than neck pickup
 

GAD

Reverential Morlock
Über-Morlock
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
22,594
Reaction score
17,816
Location
NJ (The nice part)
Guild Total
112
I don´t understand the edginess of this discussion, however permanent magnets don´t lose their charge therefore it´s relatively easy to differentiate A2 from A5.

Don't know if you're talking about me, but like I said: show me how and I'll measure them. The last time I measured them I got numbers that overlapped between Alnico II and Alnico V which rendered the results inconclusive.
 

Wulfthar

Junior Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
86
Reaction score
54
Guild Total
2
The gripe about the pickups goes back to an error made in duplicating the old ones when the LB1s started being reproduced in Korea almost a decade ago.

Vintage LB1s had a stronger bridge than neck pickup

Again, I have a new T bird and the outputs of the two pickups are balanced. DC resistance is not the right parameter to measure the output of a pickup, otherwise low impendance PUs like EMGs would not be audible. The output for a pickups should be measured in MilliVolts, not kOhm.

Don't know if you're talking about me, but like I said: show me how and I'll measure them. The last time I measured them I got numbers that overlapped between Alnico II and Alnico V which rendered the results inconclusive.


 
Last edited:

DeArmond Hammer

Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Oct 29, 2019
Messages
604
Reaction score
774
Location
Maryland, US
DC resistance is not the right parameter to measure the output of a pickup, otherwise low impendance PUs like EMGs would not be audible. The output for a pickups should be measured in MilliVolts, not kOhm.
I haven't seen output measurements of pickups published anywhere, I guess because you would need a standard source to induce the current and also a measurement of output across a frequency spectrum. I've seen curves like that published for loudspeakers, and it would be interesting to see them for guitar pickups.
 

Wulfthar

Junior Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
86
Reaction score
54
Guild Total
2
I haven't seen output measurements of pickups published anywhere, I guess because you would need a standard source to induce the current and also a measurement of output across a frequency spectrum. I've seen curves like that published for loudspeakers, and it would be interesting to see them for guitar pickups.

Dimarzio has them, and they also explain the procedure somewhere in the website, as far as I remember the measure it on the open A (5th string) with the same pickup height and same room temperature.

Here he speaks a little bit about resistance and output:


3. Hey Larry, love your pickups! I was wondering, is DC resistance the main factor in whether a pickup is high, medium, or low output? I have a Super Distortion and an Air Zone, and I’ve noticed the Air Zone is classified as medium output but has a DC of 17, whereas the Super (which is high output) is only 13. Or is it because of ceramic versus alnico magnets?
—Craig Jahns, Englewood, CO


DC resistance by itself has nothing to do with output level, for several reasons. First, it doesn’t take wire gauge into account. The thinner the wire gauge, the higher the resistance. So fewer turns of thinner wire can produce the same resistance as more turns of heavier wire. Fewer turns would produce less output. Second, the type and size of magnet will have a major effect on output level. It’s true that a Super D is louder than an Air Zone, but it’s not really about ceramic versus alnico—we have some ceramic-powered humbuckers that are not as loud as some alnico-equipped models. The only accurate way to directly compare output level (loudness) is to check the output spec, which is measured in millivolts and published for each pickup model on the DiMarzio website.


Of course it´s more difficult than just measuring the DC resistance.
 
Last edited:

GAD

Reverential Morlock
Über-Morlock
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
22,594
Reaction score
17,816
Location
NJ (The nice part)
Guild Total
112
Are you arguing that the pickups are like this by design and that that's a good thing?
 

Wulfthar

Junior Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
86
Reaction score
54
Guild Total
2
Are you arguing that the pickups are like this by design and that that's a good thing?

Are you arguing the DC resistance is the output of a pickup and therefore is "proof" they are mismatched?

In this case you don't have to argue with me, but with people like Dimarzio, Seymour Duncan or Bill Lawrence.

Rating Pickups with DC Resistance

DC resistance is NOT a power rating; it is the resistance of the wire in a pickup's coil at zero hertz, something that only occurs when the guitar isn't played. If some marketers use DC resistance as a power rating for an AC device, like a pickup, then they only show their ignorance. If we use DC resistance as a parameter, we disregard the fact that, due to Pe and other conditions that result in eddy currents, the effective resistance (Rac) is frequency dependant.

DC resistance (Rdc) tells you as much about a pickup's tone and output as the shoe size tells you about a person's intelligence!


Or perhaps you should try the Dimarzio HS-3 that has a total DC resistance of almost 24 kOhm and 70% of the output of a standard Strat single coil.
 
Last edited:

parker_knoll

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
1,453
Reaction score
410
Location
London
did you read what I wrote? The argument was that, as a reproduction of a vintage set (which is how they were billed), they were inaccurate.

In terms of people commenting that they are mismatched in terms of output, they're measuring using their ears. If you're happy with yours, that's fab.
 

GAD

Reverential Morlock
Über-Morlock
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
22,594
Reaction score
17,816
Location
NJ (The nice part)
Guild Total
112
Are you arguing the DC resistance is the output of a pickup and therefore is "proof" they are mismatched?

In this case you don't have to argue with me, but with people like Dimarzio, Seymour Duncan or Bill Lawrence.




Or perhaps you should try the Dimarzio HS-3 that has a total DC resistance of almost 24 kOhm and 70% of the output of a standard Strat single coil.

The LB1 pickups are not made the same way as a matched set of Guild Antihums. They're were recreated using a mismatched pair that was bought online without checking them. This much has been admitted to by Guild employees to members of this forum in person. My testing bears this out as I have found zero evidence of Guild shipping new guitars with mismatched AntiHum pickups.

Since you seem hung up on DC resistance, Of course it's not the be-all end-all for measuring pickups, but it is a good determination for the type and length of wire used, and as Guild has fully admitted, the neck pickup uses different wire than the bridge which is something that didn't happen with the original AntiHums.
 

mavuser

Enlightened Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
8,129
Reaction score
2,637
Location
New York
to bring this tread back to the OP and some of the details discussed, I have a couple of contributions to make here, that have nothing to so with measuring pickups or Newark Street guitars.

The single biggest difference in all SF-IV variations, as you can see in GADs photos, is having an arch top harp tailpiece, or having a drilled in stop tail piece. Some of the arch tops have a floating bridge, and some have a drilled bridge. You can see GAD mostly has stop tails, but most SF-IV's actually have the arch/harp tail. around the late 70s or early 80s the stop tail was introduced on the SF-IV, but the harp was also still available. the later 90's SF-IV's are considered "reissues" and all have stop tails with a drilled bridge. There are other variants, as noted, such as body depth, neck mounted at 14, 16, or 18th fret, neck carve, and pickups etc...but that stop tail and drilled bridge make the biggest difference, vs the arch tail and floating bridge configuration.

The pickups. In a nut shell, I believe I have sourced the Duncan/Dearmond confusion. Essentially, when Fender bought Guild and made reissue Starfires in the mid-late nineties, they produced some sort of advertisement/literature that claimed the pickups were somehow "a re-creation of the old dearmonds." my thinking is that somehow in 1995 Fender actually did think the original HB-1's, and/or anti-hums before them, were created by DeArmond-or made to look like and emulate Dearmonds, even back then. if u look at HB-1s, SD-1's, and anti hums, they do have that double hump toaster oven look to them, that kinda looks like a DeArmond humbucker. In any event, not as exciting a mystery as it could have been, but basically there is no mention of Duncan as those were acquired as "Guild," and they were simply advertised as a re-creation of original Dearmonds.
 

Wulfthar

Junior Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
86
Reaction score
54
Guild Total
2
wait..what? Alnico magnets demagnitize easy - so..what are you saying?

This is completely false, Alnico loses about 0.5% of its magnetism in a century. You know they are called "permanent" magnets, right?


did you read what I wrote? The argument was that, as a reproduction of a vintage set (which is how they were billed), they were inaccurate.

In terms of people commenting that they are mismatched in terms of output, they're measuring using their ears. If you're happy with yours, that's fab.

The argument was that DC resistance measures the output of a pickup, that the current minibuckers are mismatched in terms of volume (that I found it was false on my guitar), that it´s not possible to recognise Alnico II from V and finally that Alnico loses its charge easily...all BS. To be honest before buying my T Bird I read all the polemics about these pickups and I was seriously considering to let it go. Now I have to admit Guild is right and you guys are wrong, then if it´s not 100% accurate with the vintage pickups it´s another story.

And for expressing my opinion about this I have been attacked by a certain amount of members, including staff.
 
Last edited:

mavuser

Enlightened Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
8,129
Reaction score
2,637
Location
New York
i remember reading a bunch about the mismatched reissue mini humbuckers when they first came out, but those must have been on Starfires and Bluesbirds. When I played a T-bird in Sam Ash it had those pickups, and there were no issues, that guitar sounded fantastic. Chris has one (Acornhouse), maybe he will chime in with his experience.

Also Jerry Garcia used to replace his DiMarzios every couple years or so, as according to him they lose their power over time. he probably swapped more often than that, just experimenting as well. his guitars were specifically designed to make that swap easy and painless on the regular. I would think a guy like that who was so in tune with the universe would know when his pickups are not fresh anymore. whether or not anyone could have heard the difference, other than him, is certainly questionable. but if it is different to him his playing will be different, which we would hear.
 

parker_knoll

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
1,453
Reaction score
410
Location
London
i remember reading a bunch about the mismatched reissue mini humbuckers when they first came out, but those must have been on Starfires and Bluesbirds. When I played a T-bird in Sam Ash it had those pickups, and there were no issues, that guitar sounded fantastic. Chris has one (Acornhouse), maybe he will chime in with his experience.

Also Jerry Garcia used to replace his DiMarzios every couple years or so, as according to him they lose their power over time. he probably swapped more often than that, just experimenting as well. his guitars were specifically designed to make that swap easy and painless on the regular. I would think a guy like that who was so in tune with the universe would know when his pickups are not fresh anymore. whether or not anyone could have heard the difference, other than him, is certainly questionable. but if it is different to him his playing will be different, which we would hear.
MAVUSER, sorry to veer but do I recall you saying you have a black M70? I would love to see it as considering a refinish
 

fronobulax

Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
24,708
Reaction score
8,836
Location
Central Virginia, USA
Guild Total
5
This is completely false, Alnico loses about 0.5% of its magnetism in a century. You know they are called "permanent" magnets, right?


And for expressing my opinion about this I have been attacked by a certain amount of members, including staff.

I get a link not found from that URL.

I'm going to call both you and @GAD out. I feel like I am watching a couple of children fighting. I get the sense that both of you are not paying attention to each other. Some of that seems to be because there are several topics being discussed.

If this is to continue without me shutting it down, I see a couple of things to stay focused on.

GAD indicated his measuring techniques could not distinguish between Alinco 2 and Alinco 5. Perhaps a discussion of how to measure guitar pickup magnets might be more illuminating than arguing about how much magnetism a magnet needs to lose before it can no longer be "permanent"? In my time as a lab tech for the health department there are many cases where the precision of the instruments and the measuring technique influenced whether two samples were the same or different.

The history of mismatched bridge and neck pickups in the Newark Street line have been discussed here often, Guild's explanation and reason for not changing are documented. So maybe we don't need to spend any more time on Why? Whether the mismatch is a) something people can hear (as opposed to measure) and b) good or bad, are both opinions depending, in part on what instrument houses the pickups. We can continue sharing those opinions understanding that they are OPINIONS and not facts.

Play nice, please.
 

parker_knoll

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
1,453
Reaction score
410
Location
London
My understanding is the bridge pickup output is negatively affected by the yellow switch tip
 

Default

Super Moderator
Platinum Supporting
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
13,596
Reaction score
3,008
Location
Philly, or thereabouts
Guild Total
11
Speaking as the original nerd that observed the two different sounding pickups on the very first NS Starfire lV shipped to the Philadelphia area, I can state unequivocally that I measured dc resistance as a check on two apples to apples pickups. I didn't have more sophisticated equipment with which to measure said pups. With respect to everyone, when these pickups were originally designed by Aaron Newman and his staff, all they were concerned about was;
A: Getting a pickup that didn't hum and
B: Not infringing on Gibson's patent.

As a corollary, my understanding is that there was a shortage of the more frequently used pickup wire in the late sixties. This is something I read on a Fender forum in reference to Stratocaster pickups. I need to back this up concretely, but I have been extremely busy.
Also, Larry DiMarzio makes great pickups, but he was talking about comparing across the species, not two of the same litter of kittehs.
Talking points are all valid, but I found the difference with my ears first. Being the kind of guy that doesn't use fuzzboxes, if was a little noticeable. I just wish they would put out a 5.02k set and a 7.25k set.
 
Last edited:
Top