Starfire 1.5 (Starfire 1 Mod Project)

fronobulax

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BA 270 as well to compare:

1624542260525.png

Ralf

Similarly BA-297 which I didn't show because I was responding to vintage Bisonic installations :)

BA-297.jpg

I do note that the saddles on the vintage instruments line up near the fat part of the f hole or the volume control. But the saddle on the bass under discussion seems farther from the neck. Makes me wonder if the photos were taken from "deceptive" angles or if the scale length on the modern Starfire I is really 30.5" as published?
 

mellowgerman

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I do note that the saddles on the vintage instruments line up near the fat part of the f hole or the volume control. But the saddle on the bass under discussion seems farther from the neck. Makes me wonder if the photos were taken from "deceptive" angles or if the scale length on the modern Starfire I is really 30.5" as published?

Looking to the F-holes for relative pickup placement along the speaking length of the string may not be applicable to the new Starfire model because I remember them noting somewhere that the neck is also set farther into the body than on previous Starfire bass designs (joint around 18th fret instead of 19th fret vintage spec). I would assume this is either to combat neck dive or... (this may be a stretch) but it could also be a case of the factory where they are made, using specs in-line with semi-hollow basses they have produced for other brands in the past so as to not have to recalibrate their machinery?
 

fronobulax

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Looking to the F-holes for relative pickup placement along the speaking length of the string may not be applicable to the new Starfire model because I remember them noting somewhere that the neck is also set farther into the body than on previous Starfire bass designs (joint around 18th fret instead of 19th fret vintage spec). I would assume this is either to combat neck dive or... (this may be a stretch) but it could also be a case of the factory where they are made, using specs in-line with semi-hollow basses they have produced for other brands in the past so as to not have to recalibrate their machinery?

Got it. Using images from Guild's web site it looks like the MIK Starfire II binding "hits the neck" at the 19th fret. The same spot is between frets 17 and 18 on the Starfire I that was the basis for this mod. That would explain things. Curiously the Newark Street Starfire I bass with "sweet spot" Bisonic doesn't seem to be in the lineup anymore. I couldn't find it on Guild's site and dropping it does mean "Starfire I bass" uniquely identifies an available new product.
 

Matt R.

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I will measure the scale of this bass later when I’m home. It’s supposed to be in the 30” range.
 

fronobulax

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I will measure the scale of this bass later when I’m home. It’s supposed to be in the 30” range.

That's the factory spec and I think @mellowgerman nailed it. The body/neck joint is not in the same place on the Starfire I and the other Newark Street Starfires.

Knowing that, I withdraw my suggestion that flipping the PU might get closer to the sweet spot Bisonic.
 

mellowgerman

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That's the factory spec and I think @mellowgerman nailed it. The body/neck joint is not in the same place on the Starfire I and the other Newark Street Starfires.

Knowing that, I withdraw my suggestion that flipping the PU might get closer to the sweet spot Bisonic.

I think the butt of the fretboard being farther inland actually makes your suggestion more valid, no? If you compare the distance from the 21st fret to the Bisonic, there's a lot more space there on a "sweetspot" SFB-I than there is on Matt's. So if Matt was to rotate the pickup 180degrees, it would get the poles closer to where they are on the "sweetspot" basses, as you suggested.
Again though, I wouldn't necessarily expect that to make the bass sound better, just different. Personally, I'm looking forward to hearing the bass just as it is now. Though it's certainly fun to contemplate all the different sonic possibilities 🤓
 

fronobulax

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I think the butt of the fretboard being farther inland actually makes your suggestion more valid, no? If you compare the distance from the 21st fret to the Bisonic, there's a lot more space there on a "sweetspot" SFB-I than there is on Matt's. So if Matt was to rotate the pickup 180degrees, it would get the poles closer to where they are on the "sweetspot" basses, as you suggested.
Again though, I wouldn't necessarily expect that to make the bass sound better, just different. Personally, I'm looking forward to hearing the bass just as it is now. Though it's certainly fun to contemplate all the different sonic possibilities 🤓

Without having made any measurements I always assumed what made the sweet spot sweet was where the PU was located relative to string harmonics. But what is driving my statement is just the string length and where the magnets are along that length not the body construction or any of the other factors that could, perhaps, be contributing.

See http://www.buildyourguitar.com/resources/lospennato/index.htm

I note that the Gibson Grabber circa 1973 and later had a sliding pickup so the player could find the sweet spot for their playing. In practice, I don't recall many people actually adjusting with any frequency - it was more find something that works and then set and forget.
 

mellowgerman

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Without having made any measurements I always assumed what made the sweet spot sweet was where the PU was located relative to string harmonics. But what is driving my statement is just the string length and where the magnets are along that length not the body construction or any of the other factors that could, perhaps, be contributing.

See http://www.buildyourguitar.com/resources/lospennato/index.htm

I note that the Gibson Grabber circa 1973 and later had a sliding pickup so the player could find the sweet spot for their playing. In practice, I don't recall many people actually adjusting with any frequency - it was more find something that works and then set and forget.

I always put "sweetspot" in quotations because I think the word confuses and misleads people into thinking exactly what the article you linked seems to be warning of at certain points; there is no such thing as a mathematically correct/ideal pickup position on a mass-produced instrument. I say mass-produced, because there might be a way to determine an optimal position for a pickup or set of pickups based on the area of the fretboard that gets the most play by the specific musician who will be playing the bass. Some guys may spend 99% of their time playing between open notes and the fifth fret. With that info in mind, you could find a most ideal pickup position (or "sweetspot") for that player, by focusing on his most frequented fret positions' string harmonic peaks and valleys. That data however won't work for a guy like Phil Lesh who's all over the fretboard when playing, which may also be why the adjustability of resonant peak (Q factor) becomes wonderfully useful in Alembic style filter preamps. Additionally, some pickups exhibit relatively narrow frequency response curves that limit the prominence of different harmonics , plus as soon as you're running 2 or more pickups simultaneously, they interact with each other and you start getting elements of frequency cancellation in your signal, plus the actual position where the string is plucked/picked affects harmonic emphasis -- so those all throw another series of left-handed monkey wrenches into the "sweetspot" gears.

The reason I put a lot of emphasis on wood and construction of particular instruments (earlier in regard to the Serek Midwestern bass I owned) is in large part due to my experience of "dead-spots" and "wolf-tones", which are found on different notes/frets, to varying intensity, from bass to bass, regardless of factory specs. They may occur in the same general areas most frequently (it seems dead spots are often most notable in the 5th-9th fret range on the G string of an electric bass), but will still vary due to the specific resonant qualities of the particular pieces of wood used and how they are attached to each other.
The other factor that will affect string harmonics is the specific type of string and it's construction. Flatwounds, roundwounds, tapewounds, etc., but also hex core VS. round core, and of course the specific formula of metals used in the string, will all affect how a string vibrates and what harmonics will be most prominent.

*I should note that my "experience" with these phenomena are all just mental notes on what my ears tell and have told me and nothing that I've charted and analyzed mathematically. So they may just be my "truths", but none the less, here for y'all'n's consideration(s).

Finally, I'm not sure if my mention of the fretboard/frets muddied the waters for anybody, but just to clarify, noting the pickup poles' position relative to a fret's position is essentially the same thing as noting a specific position along the speaking length of the string, as the position of the 21st fret will always be in the exact same position along the speaking length of the string (on a properly intonated instrument). Might as well throw in a few more "positions" for a grand finale... position position position pOsItIoN position POSITION
 
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hieronymous

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Thanks! I’ll be more certain (I hope) that it kicks ass this weekend when I play it live.

Looking forward to your report! (And recordings of course) Very nice that you get to play it live! I haven't played with people in almost a year - hope that changes soon!
 

Matt R.

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Looking forward to your report! (And recordings of course) Very nice that you get to play it live! I haven't played with people in almost a year - hope that changes soon!

I hear that. Gigs are trickling back, and I’m fully vaccinated. I expect it’ll be a short while before my calendar gets back to normal, but it’s happening. And best of luck to you! I hope you get to play soon.
 

SFIV1967

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Similarly BA-297 which I didn't show because I was responding to vintage Bisonic installations :)
Understood, I think we both missed initially the different neck to body joint...I thought on such narrow pickup the pole position would be better to show but that was useless with a differently set neck...So Ingo nailed it.

Ralf
 
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