So what’s the secret to song writing?

Rambozo96

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A very broad question I know but I always been wanting to learn what exactly made for a good song that really gets your undivided attention. I just wonder at what point is it something that’s good writing and what comes off as a bit pretentious and lackluster? Should I have paid closer attention to the dysfunctional poets that we all had to write reports about in English class? Is it something people are born with that any old old C student can’t really tap into? At this point I may as well have asked the meaning of life, the location of Jimmy Hoffa’s presumably dead body and what makes up the pink goo that makes up the majority of a McNugget.
 

walrus

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I think a lot of it is a "gift", that you have or don't have, and would be hard to explain. You hear things like "It just came to me" a lot. Others would say they work hard at it.

I don't think there's an answer.

walrus
 

Westerly Wood

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Write about something you know.

I think the good writers are able to say really complex stuff simply.
 

dreadnut

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Write down everything that comes into your head. I forget way too many good lyrics by not doing this. I need to take my recorder to bed with me because that's when most of the good lines come to me, LOL
 

Rambozo96

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Well at least as far as the pink goo, I can tell you: "Parts is Parts"

I’ll tel my family that next time they ask what’s in the burritos I make in the morning that’s mostly leftovers that need be used up.
 

Rayk

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Knowing in your head how you want the song to progress .
For me I start with a blank slate. Meaning not thinking of anything. I just noodle around when one or two chords clicks I work off of those to find the next set . I can’t read or write music so methods will be different with the others . I don’t do vocals much but if I do I think of a topic and try to imagine a story then fit it to the music also you end up changing words around/corrections . Here’s a song that was a collaboration with my music buddies on another forum .
Anyway when I listened to the music the first thing that popped into my head was a guy who fell in love and was waiting for her to get there but she never did .
I also thought of it taking place in a older time so the train was a steam engine .
Anyway I’m going on to much lol here’s the song take a listen.
if your serious and interested then take the Berkeley school of music song writing class .
They offer it free, great class .

 

adorshki

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Write about something you know.

I think the good writers are able to say really complex stuff simply.
@Rambozo96 :

Yep. All the monster hits are based on pretty simple hooks and lyrics.

RayK described a good creative process, his plan for construction.

There is actually an art to it, I took a class in Jr. College called "Creative Thinking". Textbook was based on interviews with many highly regarded artists from different disciplines. A common theme developed, of tapping into that "creative zone" where new ideas gestate, and then consciously developing them on the "disciplined" level of awareness..

Related to that was the idea that there's a "simmering pot on the stove" just below the regular everyday life demands on attention, our normal "Control of Activity" zone that's evolved to over-ride the " daydreaming" zone. (Or perhaps the process of infant development and training is what brings that level to the forefront? It's a survival enhancer, in any case)

Every person in that book described a process of learning how to "tune in" to that "daydreaming" mental space. Einstein was even notorious for being pretty oblivious to his surroundings when he was in "the zone".

Meanwhile working on the current "project" and then finishing it or putting it aside allows space for the new stuff to bubble up from the simmer pot. :cool:

Exactly why Dreadnut intuitively understood the need to "write everything down": Clears some space off the desk for the next project (plus then you can revisit it when you're ready again). Trying to store all that stuff in memory actually inhibits the flow.

That's also part of the "discipline" required to develop any skill, doing the actual work of writing it down (or something equivalent, like a recording). Takes practice.

Now what occurs to me next is, "Are we only talking lyrics, or the 'whole tune' "?

And what do you define as great song? What's your ideal you're striving for? I'd assume it would be inspired by your favorite pieces/artists.

That's how it was for me anyway, wanted to be as "good" as my favorites but still be recognized for my own unique stuff, the creative pot was boiling over for me musically at age 13.

I actually decided to give up graphic art in favor of the guitar, because even though I was a better graphic artist than player, the music ideas came freely whereas visualizing graphics, not so much, except for abstracts. Inspired by music. :D

Part 2:
I love pop music. If "great" is defined by mass appeal, then pop music's where you'll find most of the "greats"?

Pop music is typically pretty simple. I loved the stuff with a nice tight little hook leading into the verses and a tight little chord progression behind 'em.
"We Gotta Get Outta This Place" (the bass intro is timeless. Also the same goes for "Windy")
"Satisfaction"
"Psychotic Reaction"
"For Your Love"
"Sunshine Of Your Love" (Some of Cream's lyrics could be considered a little pretentious unless one understood the context of the times they were written for, so there's also that issue to answer that question)

There's a lot to be said for learning your favorite stuff as a means of expanding your tool chest. That'll increase your ability to organize/arrange/formalize the new ideas as they bubble up: "What chord is that I'm hearing?" Lot easier if it's already in your vocabulary.

In my mission to become a better musician I busked on the Santa Cruz boardwalk in the early '80's. I quickly realized my most popular stuff was the simplest, especially (upbeat)12-bar blues based stuff. Bordering on country-western, even. (Hey the chords're easy to play, right?:D)
One day a little girl all of about 3 years old stopped to watch so her folks did too. After a minute or so she did a little dance. :love:

I had an epiphany going home that night (on a bus): "There's mom and dad and grandma and grandpa and a little tyke and me in the middle, and they all liked the music. That's what you gotta try to write for if you want to write great pop: the widest age range appeal possible."

So, I also had a conscious creative mission. (Still do too, but with refinements as missions get accomplished)

'At's all I got for now buddy, hope it helps. :geek:
 

ruedi

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I use the voice recorder on my phone and record it everytime I come up with a riff, a melody, or lyrics. Which often happens in the most impossible situations. Then every week or so, when I have time and feel creative, I sit down with my guitar and go through these recordings, which sometimes inspire me for a song, or at least some snippets and fragments.
 

mellowgerman

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here's some simple wisdom on songwriting that I've always appreciated:

youtu.be/2-nn50rRMMg?t=595

***Couldn't figure out how to just post a click-able link to the 9min 55sec mark... it just kept automatically embedding the mini player which restarts the whole documentary, so I deleted the https:// part and you'll just have to copy the link over into your browser. Sorry about that!

Alternately, if you've got 43 minutes to spare, this documentary is a pretty wild glimpse into some wonderful 60's psychedelic folk magic.
 
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walrus

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Two things:

The great John McLaughlin said the iPhone changed his strategy. If he has an idea, anywhere, anytime, he records it with his voice (scatting, if you will, since he doesn't write lyrics) for later.

And then there's the classic Paul McCartney story, hearing the melody for "Scrambled Eggs" in a dream, and turning it into "Yesterday". "Yesterday" definitely checks the boxes for "saying complex stuff simply". BTW, it is the most covered song in music history.

walrus
 

Cougar

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Study early Dylan and Donovan. Then do what they did.
 

Brad Little

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I think one of the keys to songwriting is the same as any writing (or playing an instrument for that matter): practice. Any creative writing class will have a journal assignment, or something similar.
 

dreadnut

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Make use of contrasts. Chris Stapleton "...I know right where I went wrong..." John Prine does this a lot too: "If I get lost you can always find her standing right beside me..."
 

fronobulax

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When people talk about "great songs" they usually mean a combination of lyrics and melody that transcends any particular performer.

Good lyric writing can, up to a point, be learned. Any techniques that lead to creative prose writing can be applied. A good lyric has something to say or a story to tell. If you're not composing for an advertising jingle or writing a lyric for a particular occasion, mining your own experience is a good place to start.

Melody writing is similar - you can study things that will give you ideas. For example stringing notes together from a pentatonic scale can lead to something worth refining and remembering. Someone once remarked that improvisation is exactly like composing except most of the time you don't go back and refine improvisation. But the skill sets are the same. The improvisations of several early 20th Century French organists were transcribed and are now part of the classical organ repertoire.

So there are techniques that you can seek out and learn as a starting point. How "good" the results are probably depend upon your passion and talent.

Do not be seduced into thinking a good performance (or recording) makes a good song. There are a lot of songs I will gladly listen to the original, but they aren't good enough that anyone tries to cover them or (worse) the cover attempt falls flat. Similarly I hated the Eagles for years. It was cool in my circles to hate the Eagles and I did not like the sound. But one day I was forced to listen and focused on the lyrics. Turns out there are some darn good stories being well told, and the lyrics can be studied as an exercise in saying as little as possible and letting the hearer fill out the details.
 

adorshki

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Study early Dylan and Donovan. Then do what they did.
Introduce the Beatles to pot and take acid in California? :devilish:

Joking aside, there's this cogent quote from Donovan's Wiki page (which coincidentally describes the relationship between Dylan and Donovan in the early '60's which I hadn't actually realized, thanks Cougar!):

"We were not captured by his influence, we were encouraged to mimic him – and remember every British band from the Stones to the Beatles were copying note for note, lick for lick, all the American pop and blues artists – this is the way young artists learn. There's no shame in mimicking a hero or two – it flexes the creative muscles and tones the quality of our composition and technique."

Word.
:cool:
 
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