So what’s the deal with Adirondack?

[Rambozo96]

I keep hearing about Guilds using Adirondack for tops. Does my 74’ D-35 have a Adirondack top as well as my 86’ D-25? Is it a type of spruce? I never heard of such a wood until I started collecting Guild’s.

 

[SFIV1967]

Unlikely that a D-25 or D-35 got a Red Spruce top.
Guild used it but only on some selected models over time. (D-50 Bluegrass Special, D-40 Jubilee, most Orpheums, some F-30, some F-47,...)

Adirondack = Red Spruce but not all Red Spruce = Adirondack...

Red Spruce | Picea rubens

The Red Spruce (Picea rubens)is a medium-sized evergreen conifer that grows in cool, boreal forests of the northeast, including the Adirondack Mountains.

wildadirondacks.org

"Eastern Red spruce, also known as Adirondack or Appalachian spruce, was the primary topwood used by American manufacturers before World War II. Its use was all but discontinued due to over-harvesting of the resource but has recently been reintroduced thanks to 50 years of regeneration and to the legendary status that this traditional tonewood has attained. The small size of most logs and a shortage of wood conforming to market preference for even color and regularity of grain conspire to keep the price of red spruce extremely high.
Red spruce is relatively heavy, has a high velocity of sound, and has the highest stiffness across and along the grain of all the topwoods. Like Sitka, it has strong fundamentals, but it also exhibits a more complex overtone content. Tops made out of red spruce have the highest volume ceiling of any species, yet they also have a rich fullness of tone that retains clarity at all dynamic levels. In short, red spruce may very well be the Holy Grail of topwoods for the steel-string guitar. If players and builders were able to overcome phobias about unevenness of color, grain irregularity, minor knots, and four-piece tops, many more great-sounding guitars could be produced while the supply of potentially usable red spruce is still available. Old-growth woods are disappearing so fast that such an attitude change will need to be scheduled sometime in the near future, unless the majority of new guitars are to be made of synthetic materials."
Source: https://bourgeoisguitars.net/tonewoods-htm/


Ralf

 

[kostask]

Large volumes of old growth Red Spruce have been found in Labrador. Just growing wild.

And I do not believe that Appalacian Red Spruce/Adirondack spruce is superior to the Labrador spruce acoustically. Due to the extremely harsh weather in Labrador (think Alaska type weather), I think the Labrador red spruce will tend to have tighter grain lines, generally considered to be a good thing for tone.

Also, in case there is an interest, the Adirondack/Appalachian spruce was overharvested to make gliders in WWII, not for guitar tops.

 

[midnightright]

It is also the top wood found on most prewar guitars, such as Martins. I've read lots of descriptions saying things like, "clear," but I suppose any descriptions on tone, would be insufficient of, or a substitute for your holding one in your hands, and playing it for yourself! I once owned a Bourgeois that was voiced similarly to these guitars; and the top was of course this type of wood / spruce. People would play a "single-note," on it--& go "whoah!" . . .

 

[Guildedagain]

Really interesting topic/info.

 

[davismanLV]

Thanks, Ralf. Appreciate the work and effort!!

 

[Neal]

Personally, I have never really warmed up to most of the newer guitars I have played with red spruce tops. They have generally sounded "tight" and unwilling to give up the warm tone I am looking for. I much prefer Sitka on a newer guitar.

But on an old (pre-1946) Martin or Gibson, oh yeah. I totally get why some of the most coveted guitars on earth have red spruce tops. Once fully opened up, red spruce has a lot of power, and is almost impossible to overdrive.

But I am too impatient to put years and years of play into a new one to make that happen. And I am not convinced that cooking the top to get there sooner is the right way to go.

 

[Rich Cohen]

A 1947 Epiphone Broadway model will have an Adi top as well. I know, and stupidly sold one.

 

[Rich Cohen]

Personally, I have never really warmed up to most of the newer guitars I have played with red spruce tops. They have generally sounded "tight" and unwilling to give up the warm tone I am looking for. I much prefer Sitka on a newer guitar.

But on an old (pre-1946) Martin or Gibson, oh yeah. I totally get why some of the most coveted guitars on earth have red spruce tops. Once fully opened up, red spruce has a lot of power, and is almost impossible to overdrive.

But I am too impatient to put years and years of play into a new one to make that happen. And I am not convinced that cooking the top to get there sooner is the right way to go.

Nice to hear from you Neal!

 

[Neal]

I've been in my cave, Rich.

Can't wait for something resembling "normal" to return.

 

[valleyguy]

From Ralf's posting : Tops made out of red spruce have the highest volume ceiling of any species, yet they also have a rich fullness of tone that retains clarity at all dynamic levels.

Note Clarity to me is the key. Each note really stands out, great for bluegrass and flat picking. And, yes, they are loud, but I have a Martin D18 equally as loud, but not quite as clear. My Tacoma D50 seems to have a perfect balance of note clarity, harmonics and sustain.

Stiff, some say, I can see that, but it depends what sound you're after. Sitka is certainly smoother.

We're lucky to have all these choices....

 

[Ross]

Large volumes of old growth Red Spruce have been found in Labrador. Just growing wild.

And I do not believe that Appalacian Red Spruce/Adirondack spruce is superior to the Labrador spruce acoustically. Due to the extremely harsh weather in Labrador (think Alaska type weather), I think the Labrador red spruce will tend to have tighter grain lines, generally considered to be a good thing for tone.

Also, in case there is an interest, the Adirondack/Appalachian spruce was overharvested to make gliders in WWII, not for guitar tops.

Hi Kostas:
Good to hear from you.
My tattered copy of "Native Trees of Canada" (1969) shows red spruce restricted to southern Quebec, New Brunswick & Nova Scotia. However, I'm not surprised to hear that it has been found in Labrador - it was probably misidentified as white spruce earlier.
Wood from Labrador would definitely have tight grain. Harvesting those trees could be a source of income for Indigenous folks (unless the Godin family has found out about it already).

 

[Tom O]

A 1947 Epiphone Broadway model will have an Adi top as well. I know, and stupidly sold one.

Cheer up. Your DD-6MCE has Adi top braces to go with the Adi top. That's why Doyle thinks it is like a boutique Guitar.

 

[Rich Cohen]

I've been in my cave, Rich.

Can't wait for something resembling "normal" to return.

Neal, come out of your cave and smell the roses! We should have a jam session!

 

[Br1ck]

For what it's worth, I built a mandolin with a red spruce top. It was extremely loud and bright when new. It took the better part of a year to loosen up and develop some low end. Since I've had that experience, it might be the only guitar you'd buy looking toward the future. Quite a dramatic change really.

 

[tommym]

As a compromise between the two, some guitar manufacturers are using Sitka Spruce tops with Red Spruce bracing. Some are even looking into torrefied bracing. A lot of combinations out there to be discussed.

Tommy

 

[cutrofiano]

...I think the Labrador red spruce will tend to have tighter grain lines, generally considered to be a good thing for tone.

Adirondack has become famous with its typical wide and unevenly grain.
-> Adirondack obviously doesn't follow the stereotype.
Fun fact: GREE (Guild's factory in China) make "Blueridge" guitars with Adirondack tops.
Moritz

 

[Neal]

That's what Huss & Dalton does. Red spruce bracing on all tops, regardless of species.

One of the few remaining old growth red spruce trees fell during a storm in the Virginian Appalachians about 20 years ago, and Huss & Dalton bought some of it and have been using it for bracing material ever since.

I think it's kinda cool that at least some of the wood in one of my guitars is made from wood that is native to where I live.

 

[kostask]

I read somewhere that there are manufacturers using torrefied (a slightly modified kiln drying process) for regular production now.

 

[Rayk]

Adirondack is the king of Tops sonically and Power wise and when you turn it down for those softer musical pieces it shimmers with bliss .