Should I invest in a fret replacement for my F4CE?

[kentrd]

Hi folks. I apologize in advance for the long post, but I wanted to give some details.

I posted a question about my Guild under this link a few months ago:

http://letstalkguild.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10977&start=0

Since then, I've been taking lessons and practicing extensively, although I'm certainly still a beginner, so I don't entirely trust my intuition when it comes to guitars (which is why I'm posting this question).

I purchased the Guild as an upgrade to my first guitar (Ovation Ultra Deluxe). I've had both guitars setup by a Luthier (John Thayer in Bremerton Washington), and they both share the same neck dimensions, so it seems to my that they would play similarly. However, what I've discovered is that it's noticeably more difficult for me to play the Guild cleanly than the Ovation (I experience string buzzing and muting).

John (my Luthier) pointed out that the frets on the Guild are somewhat worn. What isn't clear to me is whether the fret wear is contributing to my difficulty in playing clear notes.

Anyway, I'm trying to decide what to do with the guitar. My choices include:

1. Keep playing the Guild as is, and see if my difficulties go away with practice;
2. Have the frets replaced, and see if it plays better;
3. Sell the guitar, and buy something else.

I'm happy with the guitar. I like the looks of it, it's in good shape, and it sounds good to me (although I admittedly have not developed a discerning ear). However, I'm aware that mahogany topped guitars are not generally considered to be in the same league as spruce topped instruments. I'm a little reluctant to invest the money in a fret job for what might be a marginal instrument, particularly if the playability isn't improved.

So here are my questions:

1. Would worn frets cause a beginner to have difficulty making clean chords, such as I'm experiencing?
2. If this were your guitar, would you consider a fret replacement to be a worthwhile investment?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Russ

 

[jazzmang]

Re: Should I invest in a fret job for my F4CE-AMB?

I would take some closeup shots of the frets, saddle, nut and have everyone weigh in about potential problems before you drop a dime on the guitar.

Hopefully we'll be able to give you a good idea of what it needs and how much of an improvement to expect, as a simple fret job may not quite fix the issues you are experiencing.

 

[fronobulax]

Re: Should I invest in a fret job for my F4CE-AMB?

I appreciate your dilemma. When I bought my B-4E I got buzzes. Since it was my first acoustic, and a used guitar, I wondered about the instrument. A local guitar maker "checked it out" for me and there was nothing he could see or measure that would cause the buzz. So I figured it was bad technique and after a lot of self-analysis I realized I did play the B-4E a little differently. I changed that and no more buzz. I have no idea whether fret wear is a factor or not, but I do know I was able to solve the problem by working on my left hand technique. YMMV obviously, since it is easier to adjust for single strings than chords.

 

[kentrd]

Re: Should I invest in a fret job for my F4CE-AMB?

I'll post some photos as suggested - my camera isn't good for closeup stuff, so we'll see how they turn out.

I should also add - the buzzing and damping that I experience is a dynamic thing - in other words, the strings sound fine if I pluck them one at a time, while carefully fretting the notes. It's during the strumming and chord changes that I notice the problems (particularly, but not exclusively, when I remove my fingers from a chord).

 

[RussD]

Re: Should I invest in a fret job for my F4CE-AMB?

Maybe having a friend or music teacher try it to see if they experience the same issue could help define whether it's a guitar issue or a skill-level issue.
A great fret job is a work of wonder, and worth every dime. I'd suggest trying a guitar that has been refretted by your prospective repairman before investing.

Alternately, you could send it around to a few of us and we'll give you our opinions. Me first, please. You can trust me, I have your name. :lol:

 

[kostask]

Re: Should I invest in a fret job for my F4CE-AMB?

Kentrd/Russ:

It really is dependent on how badly the frets are worn, and how low they are overall. If you have dents or grooves in the frets that can be felt by running a finger nail down the frets, the frets are probably due to be replaced. On the other hand, if the frets have been leveled a few times, the frets themselves may be too low to allow clean fretting. How low is too low, is however, very dependent on their actual height, and how good/strong a player is. Really good players, often the ones who are willing to pay for really good, detailed setups, are the ones who can play guitars with poor setups and poor guitars in general, and can still get good tone out of them. The beginner players, who are actually the ones in the most need of good setups, are often the ones who are reluctant to pay for work needed to make the guitar play its best. Your luthier seems to know what he is doing (sounds like he did a good job on the Ovation), and I presume that he has checked the nut for proper height and the saddle for proper height and intonation, and has verified that the neck angle is still good.

Are you sure that the neck depth on the Ovation and the Guild are the same? Ovations tend to have really skinny necks, front to back, and the Guild may have a thicker/deeper neck, front to back, which may be affecting the way you fret the guitar.

If you trust your luthier, go with his suggestions. If you don't, find a luthier that you do trust.

Kostas

 

[danerectal]

Re: Should I invest in a fret job for my F4CE-AMB?

Are the fretboard radii the same as well. I seem to remember my ovation being more rounded.

 

[dapmdave]

Re: Should I invest in a fret job for my F4CE-AMB?

Ken,

Post a few pictures. There are some really informed folks here who will shoot straight with you.

It may be that only a few frets are bad (the first 3 or 4 where us "Joe Strummers" hang out). A luthier can replace those easily, and then dress the rest. It can make a huge difference, and if this helps you play better, then it may be worth it to you.

Dave

 

[kentrd]

Re: Should I invest in a fret job for my F4CE-AMB?

Here is a link to some photos of the frets, bridge, and nut, as previously requested. My camera isn't very well suited to closeup photos, so the focus of some of the shots is a bit fuzzy. I think you can get the idea, though. The wear from the unwound strings is mostly on the second fret, and from the wound strings on the third fret.



I compared the neck and fingerboard contour with the ovation - I can't see a noticeable difference.

But I did take the Guild back to my luthier today, and explained what I was experiencing. He keeps records of the measurements of all his setups, so he was able to compare the two. He said that he ran out of adjustment room on the Ovation saddle (something to do with the pickup design), so he made most of the clearance adjustment with the nut and the truss rod. Conversely on the Guild, he was able to adjust the saddle as well. Because of this, there is some clearance differences between the two setups, which may explain why I'm sensing a difference between the two.

After reading all of your great suggestions (thanks much, by the way!), I think I'll keep playing it for several more months before I decide whether to invest that kind of money. As my ear improves, I may decide that I want to buy a more traditional (spruce top, standard size body) guitar, which would make the fret condition on this one moot. I've also read that this particular model is known for excellent amplified sound, and since that is the direction I want to go when my skills warrant, I might just hold off until I invest in an amplifier so that I can hear what it sounds like amplified before making a decision.

Russ

 

[jazzmang]

Re: Should I invest in a fret job for my F4CE-AMB?

Wow. That is some significant fret wear in these pics.

Also, the telltale signs of buzzing around the 12th fret, combined with the somewhat low saddle height (if I am seeing that correctly in the pics, which I may not be) may indicate the need for a neck reset if it continues to get any worse.

 

[cjd-player]

Re: Should I invest in a fret job for my F4CE-AMB?

I think I'll keep playing it for several more months before I decide whether to invest that kind of money. Russ

I think you're on the right track there, Russ. Personally, I would not spend the money if it was not a guitar with a sound that really thrilled me. There are too many great-sounding guitars in the world to keep a mediocre one.
So I agree that you should take your time to decide if the sound of the guitar is what you want. But at the same time, you should play as many other guitars as you can to help in the decision.

Mahogany topped guitars do have a unique sound. You may find that you just fall in love with it. If so there will be no question that you will want to spend for the refret and setup. Conversely, you may find that you like a different guitar better.

I always feel sorry for people who are shopping and have to go play lots of guitars. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[gilded]

Re: Should I invest in a fret job for my F4CE-AMB?

I checked out the pics and those frets are way done; stick a fork in 'em!

Changing frets like you have is a necessary thing if you are going to play the guitar. If you don't keep the guitar, though, you're out most of that money.

Bill Collings and I were talking once, back when the world was young and we were both brokes (mid '80's). He said that frets are kind of like tires on a car. You have to have good ones to drive, but you can only drive the value out.

For example, nobody takes a $5000 car, puts a $500 set of tires on them and then sells the car for $5500. Nope, you'll wind up selling the car for $5000. Oh, it might be easier to sell for $5000, but you won't get $5500 (if you disagree with that logic, take it up with Mr. Collings).

 

[kentrd]

Re: Should I invest in a fret job for my F4CE-AMB?

So do you thing I should replace the frets?

Russ

 

[MarkRobertD225]

The first thing I would try would be a fret dressing and re-crowning of all the frets. That's a whole lot cheaper than doing a refret, and is a good place to start to see if it helps with you buzzing & muting issues. That way if you want to sell the axe you're not out too much coin that you wont recover in resale.

Try looking here for starters-scroll down to the end to see what I have noted above
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenSetup/Frets/frets01.html