Shave the bridge or reset

Runner6

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1977 Guild D35, the action is actually pretty good, but the saddle on the high e side is flush to the bridge. I have opinions from 2 luthiers that shaving the saddle will do the trick, obviously much cheaper than a reset. I do understand that the resale value suffers if the bridge is sanded. I’m not concerned with resale I just want a crisper sound.

thoughts? Thanks. 618FC904-2374-45A1-BD3D-016102261C17.jpeg
 

Bonneville88

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If it were mine, and I planned on keeping the guitar - neck reset.
But you have to find someone good - Fixit on this forum offers
the service and has long experience with Guilds.
 

dashstarkiller

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I’ve never been a fan of shaving the bridge down. If I were really into the guitar I’d do the reset. The playability will be so much better. Then the question comes, do you shim the fretboard extension…
 

wileypickett

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Most folks here will recommend a reset rather than shaving the bridge. But resets are expensive and it's up to you whether you want to spend the money.

Something I read recently -- I can't find a link to it it now -- is that some guitar makers (Taylor is one; I can't remember the others) make their bridges thicker than need to be, so that they can be safely shaved (at least to some degree) without affecting the bridge's ability to couple with the top; ie: with no loss of sound.

Some old Guild bridges are pretty thick. I don't know if that means you have some flexibility in shaving it.

Assuming you have access to an experienced luther, maybe see what they recommend before doing anything?
 

Runner6

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Yup. Yup. Darn it. Is it possible to buy a 40 year old acoustic that DOESN’T need a reset? Thanks for the help. Love the forum.
-Chris.
 

Runner6

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Most folks here will recommend a reset rather than shaving the bridge. But resets are expensive and it's up to you whether you want to spend the money.

Something I read recently -- I can't find a link to it it now -- is that some guitar makers (Taylor is one; I can't remember the others) make their bridges thicker than need to be, so that they can be safely shaved (at least to some degree) without affecting the bridge's ability to couple with the top; ie: with no loss of sound.

Some old Guild bridges are pretty thick. I don't know if that means you have some flexibility in shaving it.

Assuming you have access to an experienced luther, maybe see what they recommend before doing anything?

So far I have two that are suggesting that the Guild bridge will do well sanded.
 

gjmalcyon

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Welcome! Stick around - nice folks around here.

Check the neck angle per Frank Ford's directions on frets.com (link below) and post a picture. That will give us an idea of what the neck angle actually is.

How long have you had the guitar?

 

davismanLV

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Sanding the saddle will be a temporary fix.
The neck is moving and will continue to do so.
At some point in time, the neck will need to be reset. At that time a saddle that has been shaved should probably also be replaced.
Pay me now or pay me later.
What TMG said!! Shaving the saddle is temporary. And then later when you MUST reset the neck, you'll more than likely need a new saddle, too. If you're keeping it, invest in the neck reset. Don't know where in the world you are, but Tom Jacobs (Jacobs Custom Guitars) is phenomenal and I've shipped across the country (USA) for him to work on my guitar. He's the best. He's in Merritt Island, FL. The bridge is already ramped and still the break angle is fairly flat. You're losing volume because of inability of the downward pressure on the bridge to drive the soundboard. Let us know what you decide. Welcome to LTG!! (y)
 

adorshki

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1977 Guild D35, the action is actually pretty good, but the saddle on the high e side is flush to the bridge. I have opinions from 2 luthiers that shaving the saddle will do the trick, obviously much cheaper than a reset. I do understand that the resale value suffers if the bridge is sanded. I’m not concerned with resale I just want a crisper sound.

thoughts? Thanks. 618FC904-2374-45A1-BD3D-016102261C17.jpeg
HI Runner welcome aboard!

I noted you want a "crisper sound". Shaving the bridge may not actually accomplish that, because bridge mass is part of what drives the top. In addition, total height of bridge and saddle are typically in a "spec range" (typically about 1/2") that has been found over time to be about the ideal for delivering optimum string energy through the bridge and saddle to the top.

OK, having laid out those general principles, it is possible that a guitar that originally had a somewhat bulky bridge would not suffer greatly from being shaved.

Are you the original owner? It looks like that saddle was re-profiled at some point to lower the B&E strings.

I also notice all strings have already been ramped, a typical method of improving break angle over a low saddle. (Break angle is the angle of the string over the saddle, and also plays a role in optimizing string energy transfer, a shallow break angle transfers less energy. This is why saddle height is actually relevant to optimum "tone", since break angle is normally a function of saddle height. So having the saddle almost flush with the bridge would yield a noticeable decrease in volume/clarity)

Also what GJMalcyon said about checking neck alignment will give a much clearer idea of how much "wiggle room" you really have.

You mention that the action is actually pretty good, so shaving the bridge to enable a better saddle height may be a viable solution. But if the current break angle is maintained, you won't actually get a crisper tone unless the strings are buzzing on the bridge, a shave would fix that if the current saddle height/profile is retained.

I think you really need a slightly taller saddle even if the bridge is shaved, is this possible with your current (or preferred) action height?

Sanding the saddle will be a temporary fix.
The neck is moving and will continue to do so.
At some point in time, the neck will need to be reset.
At that time a saddle that has been shaved should probably also be replaced.
Pay me now or pay me later.
With respect TMG, not true in all cases. Several anecdotes here about necks that shifted a bit over the years and then stabilized.

Another reason a bridge shave may be acceptable if the break angle can be improved. Let us know if something isn't making sense, I (or somebody)'ll try to clarify.
 

Runner6

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I’m no expert, thus my post. I am just learning about how the various parts work to deliver the optimum sound. The cost of the reset is something I’m considering. I have a quote from a Nashville Luthier to reset and refret for 800.00. The luthier that is local to me estimated about 1300.00 for the reset refret and around 500.00 to shave and refret. The guitar actually plays nicely now, but for the overall dullish character of the high strings.
 

geoguy

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$1,300 sounds crazy high-priced.

$800 sounds more reasonable, but if it would involve shipping the guitar, you might as well get a cost quote from Tom Jacobs as suggested above:

Jacobs Custom Guitars
 

adorshki

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I’m no expert, thus my post. I am just learning about how the various parts work to deliver the optimum sound. The cost of the reset is something I’m considering. I have a quote from a Nashville Luthier to reset and refret for 800.00. The luthier that is local to me estimated about 1300.00 for the reset refret and around 500.00 to shave and refret. The guitar actually plays nicely now, but for the overall dullish character of the high strings.
There's also a school here that understands that sometimes the cost of a reset is simply unjustified compared to the value of the instrument, but may be completely justified by the owner's love of same.

Our member @Br1ck has a '71 D35 he painstakingly restore a few years back. "IIRC" his overall cost was about $1300, a lot more than what a D35 in good nick can typically be had for. On the other hand, he loves the tone and has a guitar with well-aged woods in virtually brand new condition, whose sound can't be touched by anything new at that same price.

$800.00 for reset and frets sounds pretty decent to me, does it include finish touchup since the finish around the neck joint will have to be "cut" in order to get the neck off? Also, sometimes a fretboard will need a little true-ing up through re-planing in order to assure a perfect re-fret job. Was that included in the $800?

Even if not, that's still not too bad since the same work out here would easily run to around a grand to $1200, and that was 7 or 8 years ago. A lot depends on location and how it affects a shop's overhead.

Oh, also, yeah, if not worried about shipping, Tom Jacobs is definitely worth getting a quote from, universal 100% satisfaction reviews for price AND quality of work here, and there've been several that we know about, maybe more. ;)
 
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wileypickett

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$800.00 for reset and frets sounds pretty decent to me, does it include finish touchup since the finish around the neck joint will have to be "cut" in order to get the neck off?

There are two key things that can impact how much a reset will cost.

If you decide to have a reset done, you can have the fretboard extension ramped to keep the geometry of the fingerboard correct, or you can have the neck reset, the frets removed, the fingerboard planed, and the fingerboard refretted, as a way of keeping the geometry correct.

The former is less expensive than the latter.

I'm not advocating shaving or not shaving (I was characterized as being in favor of shaving -- that's not what I said) but whatever anyone recommends, only Runner6 can decide what his budget permits.
 

Runner6

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There's also a school here that understands that sometimes the cost of a reset is simply unjustified compared to the value of the instrument, but may be completely justified by the owner's love of same.

Our member @Br1ck has a '71 D35 he painstakingly restore a few years back. "IIRC" his overall cost was about $1300, a lot more than what a D35 in good nick can typically be had for. On the other hand, he loves the tone and has a guitar with well-aged woods in virtually brand new condition, whose sound can't be touched by anything new at that same price.

$800.00 for reset and frets sounds pretty decent to me, does it include finish touchup since the finish around the neck joint will have to be "cut" in order to get the neck off? Also, sometimes a fretboard will need a little true-ing up through re-planing in order to assure a perfect re-fret job. Was that included in the $800?

Even if not, that's still not too bad since the same work out here would easily run to around a grand to $1200, and that was 7 or 8 years ago. A lot depends on location and how it affects a shop's overhead.

Oh, also, yeah, if not worried about shipping, Tom Jacobs is definitely worth getting a quote from, universal 100% satisfaction reviews for price AND quality of work here, and there've been several that we know about, maybe more. ;)
I spoke with Mr Jacobs. I’m going to send the guitar down to him for the reset.
Thanks all, for your input.

Buying old guitars is certainly an adventure
 
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adorshki

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There are two key things that can impact how much a reset will cost.

If you decide to have a reset done, you can have the fretboard extension ramped to keep the geometry of the fingerboard correct, or you can have the neck reset, the frets removed, the fingerboard planed, and the fingerboard refretted, as a way of keeping the geometry correct.

The former is less expensive than the latter.

I'm not advocating shaving or not shaving (I was characterized as being in favor of shaving -- that's not what I said) but whatever anyone recommends, only Runner6 can decide what his budget permits.
Thanks Wiley, forgot about that approach!
 

adorshki

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I spoke with Mr Jacobs. I’m going to send the guitar down to him for the reset.
Thanks all, for your input.

Buying old guitars is certainly an adventure
Keep us posted! Not that I think you'll have any different expericence than other members, but we still love to see a guy celebrate the rejuvenation of his baby.

Kind of a vicarious participation, I guess. :D
 
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The Guilds of Grot

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Even though a decision has been made in this issue, I am slightly confused as to the terminology that has been thrown around in the this post.

The title of the thread is: "Shave the saddle or reset". By my definition, the "saddle" is the white plastic bar that sits in the groove in the "bridge". So to shave/sand the "saddle" it would be removed from the "bridge" and the overall height of the "saddle" would be reduced therefore lowering the strings. This would indeed lower the action which is what the OP was seeking. Seeing as to how low the "saddle" is on the high E and what appear to be string ramps I don't see how this could even have been a possibility.

Then posters seem to be alluding to "shaving the bridge". If I understand this correctly this is when the "saddle" is removed and the top of the wood "bridge" is shaved/sanded to reduce the height. Since the bottom of the "saddle" groove remains in the same place, the "saddle" would now protrude further from the "bridge". Since the bridge pins would be lowered with the "bridge", the break angle across the "saddle" would increase and then presumably increase the volume of the guitar. However, this will not lower the action.
 

Runner6

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Even though a decision has been made in this issue, I am slightly confused as to the terminology that has been thrown around in the this post.

The title of the thread is: "Shave the saddle or reset". By my definition, the "saddle" is the white plastic bar that sits in the groove in the "bridge". So to shave/sand the "saddle" it would be removed from the "bridge" and the overall height of the "saddle" would be reduced therefore lowering the strings. This would indeed lower the action which is what the OP was seeking. Seeing as to how low the "saddle" is on the high E and what appear to be string ramps I don't see how this could even have been a possibility.

Then posters seem to be alluding to "shaving the bridge". If I understand this correctly this is when the "saddle" is removed and the top of the wood "bridge" is shaved/sanded to reduce the height. Since the bottom of the "saddle" groove remains in the same place, the "saddle" would now protrude further from the "bridge". Since the bridge pins would be lowered with the "bridge", the break angle across the "saddle" would increase and then presumably increase the volume of the guitar. However, this will not lower the action.
Yup. Bridge. My bad. Edited
 
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adorshki

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Even though a decision has been made in this issue, I am slightly confused as to the terminology that has been thrown around in the this post.
"Saddle" and "Bridge" are so often unintentionally mixed up in posts that I basically give a guy a free pass for the error unless he says something confirming his mis-understanding of the difference.

In this case Runner6 said "but the saddle on the high e side is flush to the bridge" in the first line of his post so I knew he knew the difference (and I figured most of us would figure that out) and I wasn't gonna "grind" him about the thread title oopsie.. ;)

Not that I think you are, and that doesn't negate your understanding of the proper usages of "shave the saddle", but just tryin' to be hospitable to a new member. Which I'm sure you'd go along with too. :D

And no he wasn't trying to lower the action, he was trying to fix the flaccid tone resulting from the saddle being almost flush with the bridge. ;)
 
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