Replacing Brazilian Back

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

How can I replace the Braz back on my 1967 D50? Is it possible to use the Braz back from another guitar? If I could use salvaged Braz from another guitar, it would blend in with the rest of the guitar, whereas new Braz would be too obviously a replacement. And even if I could re-use a piece, where would I find it? And what would the labor cost be?

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

How can I replace the Braz back on my 1967 D50? Is it possible to use the Braz back from another guitar? If I could use salvaged Braz from another guitar, it would blend in with the rest of the guitar, whereas new Braz would be too obviously a replacement. And even if I could re-use a piece, where would I find it? And what would the labor cost be?

 

[hansmoust]

How can I replace the Braz back on my 1967 D50? Is it possible to use the Braz back from another guitar? If I could use salvaged Braz from another guitar, it would blend in with the rest of the guitar, whereas new Braz would be too obviously a replacement. And even if I could re-use a piece, where would I find it? And what would the labor cost be?

Hello Darryl,

Noticed that there were no reactions to this posting. Don't have a straight answer but I'm kind of curious, so here are some questions:
Are we talking about a real case here? Do you have that guitar and if so, why are you thinking of replacing the back? If we're talking about a damaged guitar, show me the damage and I might be able to give you an answer after that.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust

 

[hansmoust]

How can I replace the Braz back on my 1967 D50? Is it possible to use the Braz back from another guitar? If I could use salvaged Braz from another guitar, it would blend in with the rest of the guitar, whereas new Braz would be too obviously a replacement. And even if I could re-use a piece, where would I find it? And what would the labor cost be?

Hello Darryl,

Noticed that there were no reactions to this posting. Don't have a straight answer but I'm kind of curious, so here are some questions:
Are we talking about a real case here? Do you have that guitar and if so, why are you thinking of replacing the back? If we're talking about a damaged guitar, show me the damage and I might be able to give you an answer after that.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Hi Hans,

Thanks for answering.

The previous owner has already had a lot of cracks fixed, and the back is refinished. But the back is opening up two long cracks near the center seam. I suspect that the back is just going to continue to disintegrate. Some pieces might even fall off, and for all I know the weakness of the back might cause other problems with the guitar. I suspect that fixing it again will just continue a cycle of fixing it every year or so with the back eventually becoming unfixable.

So I think it might be cheaper in the long run to put on a new back. But new wood wouldn't look as good as old wood salvaged from another guitar. I've never heard of anybody salvaging tops, sides, or backs of Brazilian or other expensive wood, but Braz is so expensive that maybe people are salvaging it.

Even ifI used new Braz, a back can be replaced, can't it? Or is it too expensive?

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Hi Hans,

Thanks for answering.

The previous owner has already had a lot of cracks fixed, and the back is refinished. But the back is opening up two long cracks near the center seam. I suspect that the back is just going to continue to disintegrate. Some pieces might even fall off, and for all I know the weakness of the back might cause other problems with the guitar. I suspect that fixing it again will just continue a cycle of fixing it every year or so with the back eventually becoming unfixable.

So I think it might be cheaper in the long run to put on a new back. But new wood wouldn't look as good as old wood salvaged from another guitar. I've never heard of anybody salvaging tops, sides, or backs of Brazilian or other expensive wood, but Braz is so expensive that maybe people are salvaging it.

Even ifI used new Braz, a back can be replaced, can't it? Or is it too expensive?

 

[hansmoust]

replacing back?

The previous owner has already had a lot of cracks fixed, and the back is refinished. But the back is opening up two long cracks near the center seam. I suspect that the back is just going to continue to disintegrate. Some pieces might even fall off, and for all I know the weakness of the back might cause other problems with the guitar. I suspect that fixing it again will just continue a cycle of fixing it every year or so with the back eventually becoming unfixable.

Darryl,

As a repairman and a historian I might have a different view on this.
Yes, a back can be replaced. Yes, it will be expensive but there might be a repairman in your area who likes a challenge.

Haven't seen the back but assuming that the rest of the guitar is OK, I would consider the following:

Wood doesn't really desintegrate as long as it's not rotting away, so the wood in the guitar might be usable.
If you take off the back (this involves removing the back binding as well) and remove all the back braces, then you will have a piece of wood that can be restored. Take care of the cracks by opening them up and planing the sides. Depending on how much material you've lost by doing that you can add a new piece in the spot where the crack was. You can also add a new piece in the centerseam as a part of that new piece will be covered by the decorative wood marquetry strip. If you're carefull (and I assume you will be) then you will end up with a restored back that will be mostly original wood. Depending on how easy it was to remove the back braces, you might be able to re-use those as well.
Of course you will need to refinish the back but all in all this might be a do-able project. It really depends on how wild the grain of the rosewood is.
If it's too wild it might be a little too much of a challenge. Actually if it is then it probably was the main reason for the guitar getting all those cracks.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust

 

[hansmoust]

replacing back?

The previous owner has already had a lot of cracks fixed, and the back is refinished. But the back is opening up two long cracks near the center seam. I suspect that the back is just going to continue to disintegrate. Some pieces might even fall off, and for all I know the weakness of the back might cause other problems with the guitar. I suspect that fixing it again will just continue a cycle of fixing it every year or so with the back eventually becoming unfixable.

Darryl,

As a repairman and a historian I might have a different view on this.
Yes, a back can be replaced. Yes, it will be expensive but there might be a repairman in your area who likes a challenge.

Haven't seen the back but assuming that the rest of the guitar is OK, I would consider the following:

Wood doesn't really desintegrate as long as it's not rotting away, so the wood in the guitar might be usable.
If you take off the back (this involves removing the back binding as well) and remove all the back braces, then you will have a piece of wood that can be restored. Take care of the cracks by opening them up and planing the sides. Depending on how much material you've lost by doing that you can add a new piece in the spot where the crack was. You can also add a new piece in the centerseam as a part of that new piece will be covered by the decorative wood marquetry strip. If you're carefull (and I assume you will be) then you will end up with a restored back that will be mostly original wood. Depending on how easy it was to remove the back braces, you might be able to re-use those as well.
Of course you will need to refinish the back but all in all this might be a do-able project. It really depends on how wild the grain of the rosewood is.
If it's too wild it might be a little too much of a challenge. Actually if it is then it probably was the main reason for the guitar getting all those cracks.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Hans,

Now that you mention it, I remember seeing pics of restorations with thin strips of new wood the way you describe it.

It's good to know that maybe the back braces can be re-used.

And the marquetry strip is important. If I put on a new back, there would be no way to duplicate the Guild marquetry strip, would there? Could i re-use the old one if the rest of the back is made from new wood?

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Hans,

Now that you mention it, I remember seeing pics of restorations with thin strips of new wood the way you describe it.

It's good to know that maybe the back braces can be re-used.

And the marquetry strip is important. If I put on a new back, there would be no way to duplicate the Guild marquetry strip, would there? Could i re-use the old one if the rest of the back is made from new wood?

 

[hansmoust]

And the marquetry strip is important. If I put on a new back, there would be no way to duplicate the Guild marquetry strip, would there? Could i re-use the old one if the rest of the back is made from new wood?

You shouldn't worry too much about the marquetry strip. Those strips are placed in a channel that's routed in the back. The channel groove is not all that deep and the strip doesn't always go all the way in. After it is sanded flush with the rest of the back wood there might not be much in there. Too fragile to handle by itself, so you probably won't be able to save it.
It is still possible to buy the same style though.

Hans

 

[hansmoust]

And the marquetry strip is important. If I put on a new back, there would be no way to duplicate the Guild marquetry strip, would there? Could i re-use the old one if the rest of the back is made from new wood?

You shouldn't worry too much about the marquetry strip. Those strips are placed in a channel that's routed in the back. The channel groove is not all that deep and the strip doesn't always go all the way in. After it is sanded flush with the rest of the back wood there might not be much in there. Too fragile to handle by itself, so you probably won't be able to save it.
It is still possible to buy the same style though.

Hans

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Well, I'm starting to see that there are at least two ways to solve the problem: splice in some wood, or replace it. I'm relieved not only that it can be done, but also that I have two options. And either way, the marquetry strip isn't a problem.

Am I correct in assuming that very few, if any, people are salvaging rare wood from acoustic guitars?

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Well, I'm starting to see that there are at least two ways to solve the problem: splice in some wood, or replace it. I'm relieved not only that it can be done, but also that I have two options. And either way, the marquetry strip isn't a problem.

Am I correct in assuming that very few, if any, people are salvaging rare wood from acoustic guitars?

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Also, the chances of finding a used back that looks like the sides must be a million to one, whereas finding new Braz to match the sides would only be a thousand to one (LOL). Am I correct in assuming that almost all good guitars try to use back and sides from the same sheet of wood, or at least use back and sides that look like they could be from the same piece?

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Also, the chances of finding a used back that looks like the sides must be a million to one, whereas finding new Braz to match the sides would only be a thousand to one (LOL). Am I correct in assuming that almost all good guitars try to use back and sides from the same sheet of wood, or at least use back and sides that look like they could be from the same piece?

 

[hansmoust]

matching the back & sides

Am I correct in assuming that almost all good guitars try to use back and sides from the same sheet of wood, or at least use back and sides that look like they could be from the same piece?

I would say only hand builders are in a position that they can choose pieces from the same slab of wood but in almost every factory they try to match the back & sides for grain, color and appearance. I guess some of the 'Custom Shops' of the more expensive brands could honor a request like that as well but you would probably pay for it. Guild is one of the brands that often failed miserably in matching the back & sides; mixing Brazilian & Indian would be one of the least serious offences. Having said that I should add that I have a late '60s Martin D-45 in the workshop right now that is a good example of not proper matching of the back & sides. It is all Brazilian Rosewood but as far as grain & color they could not be further apart.
If anyone is interested I will make some photos! It's not Guild related though!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust

 

[hansmoust]

matching the back & sides

Am I correct in assuming that almost all good guitars try to use back and sides from the same sheet of wood, or at least use back and sides that look like they could be from the same piece?

I would say only hand builders are in a position that they can choose pieces from the same slab of wood but in almost every factory they try to match the back & sides for grain, color and appearance. I guess some of the 'Custom Shops' of the more expensive brands could honor a request like that as well but you would probably pay for it. Guild is one of the brands that often failed miserably in matching the back & sides; mixing Brazilian & Indian would be one of the least serious offences. Having said that I should add that I have a late '60s Martin D-45 in the workshop right now that is a good example of not proper matching of the back & sides. It is all Brazilian Rosewood but as far as grain & color they could not be further apart.
If anyone is interested I will make some photos! It's not Guild related though!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Hans,

Please don't go to the trouble of the photo. I understand what you mean. I was starting to think that backs and sides were matched becasue all of the Braz sold on ebay matches the backs and sides. Is it true that most of that ebay Braz is inferior sounding?

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Hans,

Please don't go to the trouble of the photo. I understand what you mean. I was starting to think that backs and sides were matched becasue all of the Braz sold on ebay matches the backs and sides. Is it true that most of that ebay Braz is inferior sounding?