Page on compensating acoustic saddles

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

http://www.lutherie.net/saddle_angle.html

Very interesting and informative. I doubt if I could hear the difference because I wrecked my ears teaching Pete Townsend how to get the most out of his Marshalls. But the amp tech didn't suffer hearing loss because he was behind the speakers adjusting them--with nitro fuel, vitamin-covered wires, etc. That was Capn Juan (son of Hender--King of the Vikings).

 

[Dr. Spivey]

Lots of interesting info on that site. Thanks, Darryl.

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Dr. Spiffy,

Yes, the reason for the ways saddles are shaped is all new to me. So I thought other geezeroos and geezerets might not know.

Can you hear the difference between compensated and non-compensated saddles.

Hatted Frau

 

[taabru45]

Darryl, don't take this the wrong way....or personally, but maybe you should also check out compensated nuts. :lol: Steffan

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Taab Hunter,

I'll consult with Coastie and then get back to you with a snappy retort. In the meantime, maybe I misunderstood the guitar tech who told me I'd get better action and more sustain if I shim my nuts.

hf

 

[taabru45]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[West R Lee]

Fascinating Darryl, I've always been too embarressed to ask, assuming everyone but me knew, but I'll suck it up here and eat some pride. What is it about the "B" string? Why does it require "compensation"? Compensation for what? Why is it tuned differently from the others? The article was good, but he never delved into that. Does anyone here know?.....let me guess, you all do?

West

 

[cjd-player]

West, it's not because it's the "B" string per se, but because of the change from plain to wound strings. Plain strings need different compensation (longer length) than the wound strings. On an electric guitar, the G string is commonly unwound , so the "step" in the compensation happens at the G string. (By the way Darryl, a plain G string works better with shimmed nuts, but that's another story)

Compensation means adjusting the length of the string so it is in tune when fretted, especially up the neck. Different string thicknesses require different lengths to make that happen. The saddle is not parallel to the frets so that the thicker strings have a longer free vibrating lenghth. Again, plain strings must be longer than wound strings. For an acoustic, the term "compensated saddle" just means that the one-piece saddle has the top adjusted so that the B string rests father back than the E and G.

Takamine's split saddle illustrates compensation the best. The two plain strings are compensated on one angled line, then the wound strings are compensated on a different angled line.

If you were to put an unwound G string on this or any other typical acoustic, it would not be compensated properly and would be out of tune when fretted. You would have to extend the saddle for the plain strings to accomadate the unwound G and make its free vibrating length longer.

As an aside, nylon strings do not require a compensated saddle, so classical guitar saddles are not compensated.

 

[West R Lee]

West, it's not because it's the "B" string per se, but because of the change from plain to wound strings. Plain strings need different compensation (longer length) than the wound strings. On an electric guitar, the G string is commonly unwound , so the "step" in the compensation happens at the G string. (By the way Darryl, a plain G string works better with shimmed nuts, but that's another story)

Compensation means adjusting the length of the string so it is in tune when fretted, especially up the neck. Different string thicknesses require different lengths to make that happen. The saddle is not parallel to the frets so that the thicker strings have a longer free vibrating lenghth. Again, plain strings must be longer than wound strings.

Takamine's split saddle illustrates it best. The two plain strings are compensated on one angled line, then the wound strings are compensated on a different angled line.

If you were to put an unwound G string on this or any other typical acoustic, it would not be compensated properly and would be out of tune when fretted. You would have to extend the saddle for the plain strings to accomadate the unwound G and make its free vibrating length longer.

As an aside, nylon strings do not require a compensated saddle, so classical guitar saddles are not compensated.

Well thank you Carl. Another dumb question.........if strings are mixed......E, A, D, G wound and B and E plain, as most acoustic sets are, why don't all acoustic guitars have compensated saddles? I realize that saddles are installed at an angle to the neck to create that difference in string length, but again, in a compensated saddle, you normally see the B string lengthened. If that adjustment were always neccesary, you'd think all guitars would come with compensated saddles?

West

 

[cjd-player]

Well thank you Carl. Another dumb question.........if strings are mixed......E, A, D, G wound and B and E plain, as most acoustic sets are, why don't all acoustic guitars have compensated saddles? I realize that saddles are installed at an angle to the neck to create that difference in string length, but again, in a compensated saddle, you normally see the B string lengthened. If that adjustment were always neccesary, you'd think all guitars would come with compensated saddles?

West

I don't think that's a dumb question.
I think that today, most guitars do have compensated saddles, except maybe for low-priced models. I think in the past most did not. Presumably people just lived with the intonation problem. I'm guessing that with improvements in recording, the intonation became more noticable, so saddles started to be B compensated. Just a guess.

 

[West R Lee]

Thank you sir, and I'm sure a very educated guess.

West

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

See Jay Dee,

Thanks for answering. I didn't know any of this stuff.

Wessed,

I'll bet a lot of people can't hear the difference. If they could hear it in the old says, they would have filed the saddles to compensate them. So as CJ says, the difference might not have been detected until it showed up on electronic equipment. So even though the ear might not pick it up when it's played live, the ear might pick it up when it's recorded and played back.

I can't hear the difference between compensated and not compensated, but I can hear the difference between an acoustic 12 with two unwound G's vs one wound and one unwound. But if I compensated for the unwound G but not the wound G, I doubt if I could tell.

Anyway, one good thing about being an intermediate player is that I don't have to sweat all of these details because they don't affect my playing or what I hear.

hf

 

[capnjuan]

... So as CJ says, the difference might not have been detected until it showed up on electronic equipment. ... So even though the ear might not pick it up when it's played live, the ear might pick it up when it's recorded and played back.

"Good hearing is a sound thing" Hearing Aid Advertisement ...

I never gave much deference to the difference ... but since the advent of pups on/in acoustics and electronic tuners, maybe the nuances are more apparent at greater volume. Considering that all that's necessary is an extra rout and a short leg of bridge, perhaps mfrs such as Guild and others rationalized that there wasn't enough bang to justify the buck. ???

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

there wasn't enough bang to justify the buck

That's why cops stayed with the 9mm when the 10mm came out.

 

[capnjuan]

there wasn't enough bang to justify the buck

That's why cops stayed with the 9mm when the 10mm came out.

Yes, concluding the bang stopped here. Not sure how much difference there can be between the split bridge Tak format v. or on the slanty a la Guild, Martooni, and Tailor.

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Axually (that's as close as this post will come to staying on-topic) I think that the 10mm was invented because of the alleged inferiority of the 9mm in that horrendous FBI shootout in your neck of the beaches (Miami?) in which two FBI agents died and a bunch more were wounded. But the 10mm passed the buck too much, so they reduced it to the .40 SW.

 

[capnjuan]

Hmmm ... that shootout must have been before my time. Not the strongest firearms guy. As a kid, I qualified with both the Lugee and Weegee squirt guns, a Daisy pump-action BB gun, and, later in the service with the M-14 and .38. Not surprised to hear that it might have been Los Federales taking fire though; the local Metro/Dade police historically best known for taking money ... or drugs ... or ....

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

It's been a long time for me too. Shooting is dangerous, expensive, and time consuming.

 

[West R Lee]

8) Mrs. West packs an S&W .40 16 shot autoloader. She's from time to time down by the railroad tracks picking up money at a business. Composite frame, it's very lightweight, actually a Glock copy. She keeps about 8 rounds in it to save weight. I pity that poor fool that tries to do her in, she's a far better shot with that thing.

West

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

A .40 S&W is a 10mm short, right? Like a .380 to a 9mm, a .38 to a .357, and a .44 special to a .44 mag?