Orpheum Production in New Hartford

[davismanLV]

Also, Ren showing some lady how to hold a piece of wood up and tap on it, then going "Okay, now try this one." isn't exactly what "tap tuning" is. That's done while shaving and bracing the top throughout the whole process. It's done by the luthier during the build process.

See the video below which explains more about tap tuning.



I didn't see any of this going on in the videos. Did you see anything like this happening at the factory?

 

[kostask]

Not exactly the way that I saw my hand building friends do it, but a lot of the principles are the same. The people that I have seen do this, on acoustic guitar tops, used their thumbs to tap the tops, and did NOT use a microphone, compressor, hammer, or tuner, but did it by ear. The person in the video was doing it on a mandoliin, which is different from a flat top guitar (smaller sized, what I assume to be a carved arched top), and straight braces. which are a completely different bracing concept to the X brace +finger braces used on flat top acoustics.

When this video ends, there is a video called "Master Class on Tap Tuning Braces on an Archtop Guitar" which is quite close to what the people I know do (did). Note that the person in this video did it by tapping with his finger, and by ear. Still not 100% the same, as this is an archtop, which operates with a carved arched top (top varies in thickness), not a fairly flat uniform thickness acoustic guitart top, and they use tone bars (even though they are in an X pattern), not braces. Basics are the much closer, though.

 

[davismanLV]

I was not saying that this is the way everyone does tap tuning or that it's the only way or the best way..... just that what was shown in the New Hartford videos was not an example of tap tuning. More like tap selection, which may be a real thing, but it's not tap tuning.

 

[fronobulax]

Not really a veer and along the same lines of discussion. I have seen in the Description from Guild Dealers referring to the Resonators that were made in New Hartford they almost always state, "Straight from the custom shop in New Hartford is the new line of hand built Resonators form Guild". Now one can imagine that there is a significant difference in the construction of a resonator as opposed to an Orpheum or Traditional Guitar. I have heard them referred to as Custom Shop on several occasions but mine and every other one I have seen has a regular label on it. Didn't someone say that the resonator construction was taking place away from the main line at New Hartford during one of the LMG events? Just curious.

The resonators were being made on the same production line/product floor. I remember standing around a workstation while someone held up a "basket" which was the frame for the resonator and explained how the two models differed.

 

[fronobulax]

Just to distinguish, you are referring to Michael Collins Guitars in Argyle, New York and not Collings Guitars in Austin, Texas, right? Not that it's critical to your point about the Custom Shop, but, maybe.....

Collings Guitars. Austin Texas. Trying to make every word that has a c o l n and an s into Collins is probably the result of living near Collins Park that contained Collins Lake during my formative years. Thank you.

 

[dapmdave]

When Jason signed tops, was that just for Orpheums?

Jason apparently signed everything he built. I have his signature on my Orph, and on 2 out of 3 DD's (which were not Custom Shop guitars, BTW).

 

[fronobulax]

Having spent my lunch hour reviewing the video, Frono, I agree with your assessment that Orpheums came right down the production line, just like all the other New Hartford Guilds, meaning that they fail to meet my definition of "custom" instruments.

I can find no reference to the glue used on the other Guilds, but I know that "hot hide glue" is an upcharge in the making of custom-ordered guitars from builders here in Virginia (Huss and Dalton, and Rockbridge). I find it unlikely that Guild would have gone to the trouble and expense of using hot hide glue on all guitars, without including it in their marketing.

Hot hide glue is hard to work with, and does not generally lend itself to a production environment.

I am off in the land of wild speculation but hot hide glue was definitely used in Westerly, and there are posts from former workers attesting to that as well as comments about the pots not being as "clean" as they could have been. So I'm not sure why you think it doesn't lend it self to a production environment. I am also not sure I would extrapolate from H&D, which I'd estimate is about one tenth the size, to New Hartford. Sometimes there really economies of scale. The H&D up charge may have more to do with waste because they have to prepare more glue than they need.

At LMG I (or II?) they discussed the philosophy of the Traditional and Standard Series (a distinction that is only of historical interest now). The former was essentially "Let's do it like they did it before so the folks who are going to look at a 20 year old Guild will buy a new one instead" whereas the latter was "What can we change from the tradition that makes the instruments more modern or cheaper and easier to build".

In that spirit I would expect that the Traditional Series used hide glue and probably saw no need to advertise that fact because, "Traditional". Duh.

But, I really don't know what glue(s) were used in New Hartford and I wouldn't mind finding out.

 

[fronobulax]

Now that I have read a couple more pages...

Prior to 2013 "custom shop" in reference to New Hartford was a marketing concept often used to mean "we only made a few of them and we were real careful". In 2013, Ren showed up and "Custom Shop" got capital letters and became marketing talk for "Ren had something to do with this". At no time was there a separate area for production, dedicated staff for custom instruments, or even a process for the customer to make choices/selections.

The only Custom Shop products were the 60th and the Orpheum.

The Orpheum was made with hot hide glue exclusively. There is strong evidence that other production models used Tite Bond II, at least for the neck/body joint and possibly other joints as well.

Ren was responsible for the design of Custom Shop instruments. There is video testimony that suggests he was involved with wood selection but it is not certain whether that means he used tap tuning, personally selected the wood, trained someone else how to select the wood he wanted or some combination thereof.

I think I have touched on all of my speculative points that were either Wrong or Not Completely Right.

As I review this, the thing that set me off now seems to be the belief that the New Hartford "Custom Shop" was significantly different in any meaningful way from the regular production line. And it should be noted that there were slight changes and tweaks to "regular" production models and processes made under Ren's direction as well.

 

[chazmo]

I was not saying that this is the way everyone does tap tuning or that it's the only way or the best way..... just that what was shown in the New Hartford videos was not an example of tap tuning. More like tap selection, which may be a real thing, but it's not tap tuning.

Yup, that's fair. "Tap selection" it is.

I think Ren was doing that with the worker after the boards had been cut by the laser. So these were kind of in an intermediate state, Tom. That said, I know I never saw anyone shaving braces and tap-tuning during the LMG tours. That isn't saying all that much as we didn't see every activity going on (and I missed the last tour in LMG IV).

 

[kostask]

Hot hide glue was used in guitar production for many decades, in very large, and very efficient, factories. Harmony and Kay (as well as Martin, Gibson, and others of lower volume) produced several quintillion guitars (most of them very low end, economy type guitars0 using hot hide glue for every single joint. Aliphatic glue (what is referred to here as Titebond) eventually replaced hot hide glue sometime in the 60s (perhaps in the 50s in some cases). It is not as good, tonally, but it does make for a much safer factory environment.

Only reason that hot hide glue is now an optional add-on is because it is harder to get, and the amount of time for both setup and the amount of time that the glue can sit in the pot is much lower, and of course, people are willing to pay extra for the tonal advantages of hot hide glue.

 

[txbumper57]

I think this thread has compiled a good bit of information on everything from speculation to definite happenings referring to the Custom Shop and Orpheum Production as well as other models made in New Hartford. I am positive as always that there is a ton of information out there that we may never now about or scratch the surface on but overall I am pleased with the amount of information that has been verified. It's nice to have videos of the man that designed and Built/trained people to build the Orpheum line speaking to the extent of what went on, especially when those videos were originally posted by the company that actually produced the product. Also wonderful to have first hand accounts from members who have actually seen things at the factory itself. Good thread in my opinion!:cool-new:

 

[bobouz]

Hot hide glue was used in guitar production for many decades, in very large, and very efficient, factories. Harmony and Kay (as well as Martin, Gibson, and others of lower volume) produced several quintillion guitars (most of them very low end, economy type guitars0 using hot hide glue for every single joint.QUOTE]

Yes indeed. Back in the '70s, I picked up many '30s to '50s Kays & Harmonys at flea markets for $10-$20. Hot hide glue on thousands of guitars being cranked out for mail order & music stores.

 

[merlin6666]

It's also interesting to note the the Guild Custom Shop also served as Fender Custom Shop at the time. Here's a tour of the Fender shop that also shows a few Guild parts:

http://www.themusiczoo.com/blog/2013/factory-tour-fender-custom-shop-acoustics-part-one/

One of the key custom shop employees - Darren Wallace - stuck around the plant and was instrumental in bringing Ovation back there. He probably could tell many tales on the production of the various co-existing brands and models and their (maybe not so) subtle differences.

 

[Neal]

Of course, there really was no option other than hide glue back in the '30's to '40's for building guitars. Synthetic glues, starting with Elmer's, were developed in the 50's, and TiteBond was a later development.

 

[davismanLV]

I think this thread has compiled a good bit of information on everything from speculation to definite happenings referring to the Custom Shop and Orpheum Production as well as other models made in New Hartford. I am positive as always that there is a ton of information out there that we may never now about or scratch the surface on but overall I am pleased with the amount of information that has been verified. It's nice to have videos of the man that designed and Built/trained people to build the Orpheum line speaking to the extent of what went on, especially when those videos were originally posted by the company that actually produced the product. Also wonderful to have first hand accounts from members who have actually seen things at the factory itself. Good thread in my opinion!:cool-new:

I agree, tx!! This has been a good one. A lot of information and data has been collected here that was certainly new to me. Good thread!! :encouragement:

 

[chazmo]

My only hope is that Oxnard is as open and welcoming to LTGers as New Hartford was. Some folks forget that from 1952 through 2010 there were no public tours/events like Let's Meet Guild. They really rolled out the red carpet for us in New Hartford -- four times, as a matter of fact. We got unprecedented access to the shop, but even more so to the management and the executives who ran Guild during that time.

For those who didn't make those events, you really got to absorb a ton of information about how guitars were built, and we had discussions about all the major issues Guild faced at the roundtables.

W.r.t. Orpheums, we only had one event where they were in full swing in production, so there isn't a ton of word-of-mouth information on them from us.

 

[krugjr]

excellent thread..read every word, watched every video, learned a lot, hats off the "the gang"! .. WTB : all the new Orpheums left in the country!

 

[fronobulax]

It's also interesting to note the the Guild Custom Shop also served as Fender Custom Shop at the time. Here's a tour of the Fender shop that also shows a few Guild parts:

http://www.themusiczoo.com/blog/2013/factory-tour-fender-custom-shop-acoustics-part-one/

One of the key custom shop employees - Darren Wallace - stuck around the plant and was instrumental in bringing Ovation back there. He probably could tell many tales on the production of the various co-existing brands and models and their (maybe not so) subtle differences.

There's that marketing BS again We need to remember that the factory built other guitars besides Guilds. I saw a few Ovations at LMG I, there were Hamers in for repair and Fender Kingmans were co-mingled with Guilds at LMG III. But they all shared the same production facility and there was no 'custom shop' with dedicated space and staff for any of them. So the Fender Custom Shop at New Hartford was the Guild custom shop was the New Hartford guitar factory production line.

Mr. Wallace led all three of the official LMG tours I was on and gave me a personal tour of his lair and a couple other spaces at LMG III. In general he was the plant manager, responsible for all guitar production regardless of brand. It is my opinion that there was a little awkwardness when Ren was hired by Guild because Ren was responsible for Guild production which was the vast majority of the factory's output at the time. The story of how Mr. Wallace managed to keep much of the non-Guild owned production machinery in the vicinity of the factory and thereby helped convince Drums Workshop to restart Ovation production in New Hartford has been recounted elsewhere.

Mr. Wallace was passionate about making the best guitars possible given the economic constraints imposed. As such he didn't care that much what name was on the headstock. I'm pretty sure that all of the braces were made on the same machine, although the specs may have differed based upon then intended use. The Fender Kingman had six tuners on a side and it turned out that the stress was different enough that Kingman necks and bracing were different from those of a Guild. And you don't need to bend the sides if the back and body are not wood

 

[The Guilds of Grot]

Just to add to Frono's post...

http://www.themusiczoo.com/blog/2013/factory-tour-fender-custom-shop-acoustics-part-one/

This is a great article! It shows so much about the Guild/Fender manufacturing procedure. It also visually demonstrates my rant about luthiers versus guitar builders over in the Thunderbird thread.

One of the key custom shop employees - Darren Wallace - stuck around the plant and was instrumental in bringing Ovation back there. He probably could tell many tales on the production of the various co-existing brands and models and their (maybe not so) subtle differences.

I also was fortunate enough to have Darren lead two of the four tours I did at Guild. His tour was twice as informative as the other two tour leaders I had. Being a long time manufacturing guy myself, I hung on every word he spoke! And I see there's that "Custom Shop" thing again! Darren did not work in the "Custom Shop" because as stated numerous times above, there was no "Custom Shop"! It was a "virtual" Custom Shop to designate small special instrument runs. Everyone wants to think there was a room with two or three Luthiers that which build a complete guitar themselves from start to finish. Sorry to burst that bubble, but all the "Custom Shop" instruments were built on the same machines with the same processes as every other Guild and Fender. The article above depicts this completely! All of you that were never fortunate enough to take a tour should take a look at it. (Lots of Guild content even though it's about Fenders.)

 

[wileypickett]

Darren was our tour guide the three times we did LMG -- I found him fascinating to listen to, very down to earth and accessible.

Those are the only guitar plant tours I've ever done, but it's hard to imagine them being bettered by anyone. A big thank-you to Chaz for getting the ball rolling (and everything that must have entailed!) and, of course, to the folks at Guild who were open to the idea and so incredibly accommodating.

Nora and I recall those visits with fondness. Wish they were still going on!

I hope you left-coasters get a similar opprtunity when Oxnard is in full swing.

Glenn