Orpheum Orchestra body shape

[Chicago60613]

Hey all, I’m very new to this forum. I just acquired a Guild Orpheum Orchestra 12-feet rosewood model and I’m in love. I’ve always been curious about Guilds after watching Hendrix & SRV to name a few, but never saw one in person I liked as much as this.

My first American-made acoustic guitar was a Martin CEO-7, which was a college graduation gift from my family. I ended up trading it for a Gibson J-50 because I realized I like Gibson voicing more than Martin. As happy as I was and still am with my Gibson, I always missed the playability of the Martin.

This Orpheum model seems to check all the boxes for me. Extremely comfortable neck reminiscent of that guitar, perhaps a little better. It’s my first rosewood guitar so I like the bass a lot. The Gibson scale length and 12 fret body make this feel like a cheat code while playing .

Being a math nerd I decided to look up the dimensions on Guilds site and compared it to a regular Martin 000 size body. I noticed that the lower bout is wider (15.75”) and it’s slightly less deep. This really got me wondering about why they chose this. My understanding is that Ren Ferguson designed this line and had Martin, Gibson as well as the Larson Bros for inspiration.

Can anyone help me understand what the subtle differences in dimensions represent? Does it give the guitar a little more bass? Is this modeled after a particular Larson Bros model you know of? Or is it simply done to differentiate from the original for aesthetics mostly?

Thanks in advance for your insights. Hope you’re all enjoying your Guilds!!!

 

[Stuball48]

Welcome Chicago and first post seeking information on YOUR Orpheum 12 fret. What an entrance and lots of guitar knowledge on this forum, especially, Guild. You will have your answer or opinions, at least.
Come back often.

 

[gjmalcyon]

Welcome! Stick around - nice folks around here.

Can't answer your question, but there is much love for Orpheums around here. My heirs will have to figure out what to do with mine.

 

[walrus]

No answers, but welcome!

walrus

 

[merlin6666]

Welcome to LTG. I have a 000 12 string and really like it's shape. I think that we will have to ask Ren Ferguson about his specific design goals, as I don't recall any detailed explanation published on this.

 

[Tom O]

Thicker bodies have more bass and more sustain. See what Ren Ferguson says

 

[fronobulax]

My understanding is that Ren Ferguson designed this line and had Martin, Gibson as well as the Larson Bros for inspiration.

Welcome. Ren's stated goal with the Orpheum was to design and build an instrument that Guild might have made in the 1930's if Guild had been around at that time. So if I were looking for the inspiration behind dimensions and features, I might look at the time period in general and not necessarily specific manufacturers. I will also note that the Orpheum instruments were to be produced in the New Hartford factory and it is quite possible some decisions were made based upon the ease of production. So some design choices may have been made because they required less reconfiguration of the assembly line. In the absence of an interview with Ren, I might look at the dimensions of other New Hartford instruments that were in production at the time and see whether one of them is a closer match than a Martin 000.

 

[chazmo]

First of all, congrats on your Orpheum, and welcome to LTG!!!!

I agree 100% with frono about Ren's intent and what was going on in New Hartford in 2013/2014. I do think, however, that these Orpheums (Orphea?) were clearly influenced by old Gibsons, especially those slope-shouldered dreadnoughts, and thus do invite comparisons. I personally have nothing to offer on that score, never having played an instrument of any sort that old.

One of the funny things about the Orpheum 12-strings was that practically each one of them had a different designation on the label... Some said "000" (like mine did), but others didn't. They all seemed to be designated differently although (despite the mahogany and rosewood difference among them) they were alike.

Anyway, again, many congratulations on bringing one of the finest Guilds into your stable. Welcome aboard!

 

[Chicago60613]

Thank you all for the welcome & support!!

I did see this YouTube video () with Ren mentioning Prairie State, Martin & Gibson.

The way I personally understood the “if Guild was around in those days” statement, is that Guild did begin by making their own versions of Gibson and Martin guitars in the 50s/60s, right? So I thought Ren meant that if they had been doing that same thing 20 years earlier, with the addition of Prairie State, this is what they would’ve been. I think it’s a really cool concept in any case!

And thank you for the video Tom!! It makes sense why the depth is different.

 

[Christopher Cozad]

Hi and welcome to LTG!

Congratulations on your acquisition... the Orpheum line represents an imaginative exploration by an experienced guitar maker who wished to stay true to the Guild legacy while paying homage to the Golden Era of guitar building. His efforts resulted in some seriously well-crafted instruments. I have a 12 fret Mahogany Slope-D that is an impressive example.

Very small bodied guitars *can* be constructed to be very loud, but it is near impossible to provide them with a bass response of any significance. There is simply not enough surface area on the soundboard to manage the longer wavelengths. By widening the lower bout and increasing the surface area of that front plate, a potential is introduced for delivering deeper bass sounds. By splaying the X brace outward a small amount and relaxing the overall stiffness of the soundboard slightly (essentially "loosening the top" a bit) a 15 to 16 inch guitar can deliver a surprising amount of bass. The Rosewood back and sides add those impressive orchestral overtones to the overall mix, and you end up with a mighty fine new "old" Guild.

 

[tommym]

Hey all, I’m very new to this forum...

Welcome to the forum!

I am not sure if the following link adds anything to this conversation, but it is a nice reference. Not sure how long Guild is going to keep this link/info up on their website either.

Orpheum Series | Guild Guitars

Guild’s beautifully crafted and rich-sounding Orpheum series guitars come from the talented hands within the Guild Custom Shop.

guildguitars.com

Tommy

 

[fronobulax]

Guild did begin by making their own versions of Gibson and Martin guitars in the 50s/60s, right?

I think there are grounds for disagreeing with that statement. If you are going to claim that Guild deliberately was copying some other company's guitars (and that can be debated) Epiphone is a better candidate than Martin or Gibson.

 

[JohnW63]

I've always figured that guitar brands and makers of the day set out to make there own style of guitar, and since the design template for bracing and other specs was already well known, from the older manufacturers, those type of features ended up in the other guitars. Not exact copies, but since it was a proven platform, very similar designs. Guilds don't really sound like Gibsons or Martins, so they clearly made up their own designs, once past the basics.

 

[Chicago60613]

Oh yeah I didn’t mean they were total clones but they did use the same, or similar body shapes from my understanding. Like the SJ-200 or dreadnought shape. I didn’t mean it in a negative way, I know Gibson offered their versions of Martin-style guitars and body shapes also throughout the years. Please correct me if I’m wrong but the J-45/50 was originally inspired by the original Martin slope-shouldered dread. Then, of course there’s the hummingbird/dove in the 60s.

 

[fronobulax]

Oh yeah I didn’t mean they were total clones but they did use the same, or similar body shapes from my understanding. Like the SJ-200 or dreadnought shape. I didn’t mean it in a negative way, I know Gibson offered their versions of Martin-style guitars and body shapes also throughout the years. Please correct me if I’m wrong but the J-45/50 was originally inspired by the original Martin slope-shouldered dread. Then, of course there’s the hummingbird/dove in the 60s.

When you have something like a guitar it is hard to distinguish between a design feature that is selected because it really is the best (or only) way to accomplish something and something that was selected because it was copied from or inspired by another guitar. At some point only the designer can tell you what the influences and inspirations were and even then they might not be right. As an example look at some of the music plagiarism lawsuits.

Almost all acoustic guitars have a soundhole. Are they copying each other when the soundhole is in the center of the top or is that merely the traditional location or the easiest way to build a guitar with a soundhole.

I suspect what you are really curious about is how certain design decisions change the sound and performance of the instrument.

 

[JohnW63]

Different sound hole placement means different bracing patterns and sometimes not symmetrical bracing patterns. I would guess going that route takes a lot of time and trial and error. None of that gets anyone paid since you're not selling any of those experiments. Unless you just like the engineering challenge, like Charlie Kaman.

Ovation Bracing Patterns

 

[siddhartha]

I too have a Martin CEO-7, in addition to some others. Love that guitar! It's got a great voice.

I also have a Guild Orpheum OM, and will tell you-it has absolutely one of the finest voices I've heard. I think that Ren definitely got the balance right on these, and they are relatively rare. Consider yourself lucky.

Many people will try to distill "perfect" instruments down to their wood, measurements, and age, but there's more to it. Nobody really can tell you with certainty, but some will get close. I think the Orpheums are fantastic instruments!

Now, if my Orpheum OM was short scale....I'd probably never need anything else

 

[Christopher Cozad]

Thanks for the Adamas photos, John. I have always found those particular instruments to be among the most visually stunning of any acoustic guitar design. The ornately carved Walnut headstocks and bridges, those jig-saw puzzle-piece hardwood epaulettes, the gorgeous reverse 'burst Carbon Fiber tops, and that rope effect binding... a real feast for the eyes. Where Mr. Ferguson nodded and tipped his cap to a bygone era with the Orpheums, Mr. Kaman kind of took the guitar in another direction with the Adamas line.

 

[merlin6666]

Thanks for the Adamas photos, John. I have always found those particular instruments to be among the most visually stunning of any acoustic guitar design. The ornately carved Walnut headstocks and bridges, those jig-saw puzzle-piece hardwood epaulettes, the gorgeous reverse 'burst Carbon Fiber tops, and that rope effect binding... a real feast for the eyes. Where Mr. Ferguson nodded and tipped his cap to a bygone era with the Orpheums, Mr. Kaman kind of took the guitar in another direction with the Adamas line.

Indeed. Here's a pic of my Adamas with my Orpheums for contrast.

 

[chazmo]

^ That is SOME contrast, merlin!