On the JS II "Deep/Hard Switch"...

[hieronymous]

I'm not sure how much more I can contribute to this thread, but I will add that none of those audio clips sound like my bass. I'd also like to thank each of you for contributing. Fascinating indeed!

Yeah, there are two aspects of the clips I made that will probably be different than most people - 1) I'm using flats, and 2) it's fretless. Can you make any recordings? That would be the best, if owners of these basses could do some recordings, but unfortunately it seems like most people aren't able to. Which is a shame, because being able to record has had an incredible impact on my musicianship, even my identity!

 

[mavuser]

I'm not sure how much more I can contribute to this thread, but I will add that none of those audio clips sound like my bass. I'd also like to thank each of you for contributing. Fascinating indeed!

Yeah, there are two aspects of the clips I made that will probably be different than most people - 1) I'm using flats, and 2) it's fretless. Can you make any recordings? That would be the best, if owners of these basses could do some recordings, but unfortunately it seems like most people aren't able to. Which is a shame, because being able to record has had an incredible impact on my musicianship, even my identity!

i suppose i could upload some short clips to youtube and post the link, that would be the easiest thing for me. but i don't play professionally and really just mess around, self taught on guitar, and just started with the bass very recently. but i could pull off some scales/improv just so you could hear the tone of the JS1. i had intended to post a demo of the Guild Maverick guitar amp as well. i havnt got around to that for several reasons and at this point i think it needs new tubes. but i could start with the bass, maybe this weekend i can do it. cheers

 

[fronobulax]

I'm not sure how much more I can contribute to this thread, but I will add that none of those audio clips sound like my bass. I'd also like to thank each of you for contributing. Fascinating indeed!

Yeah, there are two aspects of the clips I made that will probably be different than most people - 1) I'm using flats, and 2) it's fretless. Can you make any recordings? That would be the best, if owners of these basses could do some recordings, but unfortunately it seems like most people aren't able to. Which is a shame, because being able to record has had an incredible impact on my musicianship, even my identity!

Finally played your clips. They remind me of my JS but it's not quite the same to me. I was impressed at how much the first clip came to sounding like an acoustic double bass. I know that is the Holy (sound) Grail for some bassists but it is not something I ever was seeking.

I'm getting motivated enough that I might actually lash up something so I can record. I will prevail upon someone else to host and post clips, since I'm not sure anything I am already using can host sound clips and I'm not about to open up yet another account just for this. But this project is intriguing enough that I'll make the effort.

As for recording in general, every time I have recorded myself I have been shocked at how much obvious room there is for improvement. I don't record for two reasons. First, I'm not quite ready to devote serious time to becoming a better bassist. Second, my recording setup, such as it is, involves gathering gear from several rooms in the house and assembling it in one place. At the moment I have neither a dedicated space or dedicated computer for the job.

 

[hieronymous]

Yes, recording is a bit of a pain. But it's for Guild Science! It would be great to have some sound samples of different configurations. What I did was set it so that the loudest setting (neck B in my case) isn't clipping, then leave the gain alone so that the settings can be compared. I didn't use any compression or eq. Normally I would - I never just record my bass direct, I use a tube compressor and Alembic F-2B tube preamp. But this is for SCIENCE! :wink:

The other suggestion I would make would be to play some notes/scales (I didn't do this ), then improvise some grooves or riffs. What would be really interesting would be to record different people playing the same bass and seeing what kind of differences we come up with! I bet that playing techniques and styles would have a big impact on the sound. In my clips I just tried to be "internally consistent" - same picking/plucking technique in the same place with the same strength, etc.

If anyone does decide to do this, then a great hosting site is soundcloud - it's really easy to use, and there's a lot of great music there. We could even set up a group with sound samples!

 

[mgod]

Normally I would - I never just record my bass direct, I use a tube compressor and Alembic F-2B tube preamp.

In my world, we consider that direct.

 

[hieronymous]

Normally I would - I never just record my bass direct, I use a tube compressor and Alembic F-2B tube preamp.

In my world, we consider that direct.

Sorry, "clean" might have been a more accurate term. Or "without any effects, EQ or processing." I didn't mean "direct" as opposed to "miced." My world is not the normal world - it's a world constructed mostly in my head!

 

[mgod]

I need a "like" button.

 

[fronobulax]

I need a "like" button.

*snicker*

 

[hieronymous]

I need a "like" button.

Since my posts appear to be too pedestrian I'll just stop.

 

[mgod]

OK, but I meant it, I thought it was funny.

 

[hagmeat]

Great thread guys. Special Thanks to Hieronymous, Mavuser, Zelja and Frono for your detailed contributions
and for taking the time to nut this topic out. I think Zelja has nailed it with his descriptions of how the switch
actually works. As I have mentioned in some other posts, I am a fan of the Guildbucker. On my `71 JS2 I mostly
play(with fingers) with the switch in the beef(deep) position with both pickups activated. However, I will flick the
switch and use the thin(hard) position when I`m using a fuzz or a phaser pedal.
Cheers fellas.

 

[mavuser]

I had some difficulty making a recording the way I intended to, but I'm going to work on it. For now in order for me to get it loud enough for the camera to really hear the bass, I had to turn my amp up so loud that everything in
My house was rattling and shaking. And that was just in the one treble position. Gonna give it another try in a different room soon, and/or try to teach myself garage band or whatever else is on my iMac. I may try to get some help from friends or take the bass elsewhere for a demo, but I'm working on it.

One thing I have noticed in trying a few different basses, I seem to always have the tone pot turned all the way off. Also I have flat wound strings on the JS 1. They appear to be daddario medium scale chrome flats. I think flat vs round definately makes a difference in sound. I can hear the difference without even plugging the basses into an amp.

 

[Zelja]

Well, hagmeat brought his JS-II over & we tested the operation of the switch with the alligator clips as I proposed to Frono & the results were pretty much as I suggested in a previous post.

With the switch in the hard position & then with the cap bypassed, the fullness & volume jumped markedly & it was louder, fuller than in the normal "Deep" position! Might have had a touch more highs the the Deep position as well at the very top end but hard to ascertain due to the volume differences. In fact the Hard position with the cap bypassed with the Volume knob on about 3.5 sounded pretty much the same as the normal Deep position on full volume! Not surprising as I mentioned before the 220K resistor forms a voltage divider with the volume pot. The effect was more marked than I initially surmised because it seems the pots are actually closer to 200K rather than 500k (hard to measure correctly when in circuit). As a result, half or more of the initial pickup signal doesn't get to the output when in the standard Deep mode!

We also shorted the 220K resistor on the Deep switch setting & got the expected response - volume/fullness boost. Did the same with the 150K resistor on the bridge pickup circuit with the same result.

So we wanted to still use the switch & I thought of putting a bigger cap across the existing cap on the Hard switch (with the shorting link now taken out). A bigger overall capacitance would still cut some lows but allow more through than the standard cap value to provide a fuller sound than the standard hard setting but a brighter sound than with the 220K resistor out of the circuit in the Deep setting (effectively Deep Position Plus). We found a few values which were decent.

Then had the idea of putting a pot across that cap in parallel & varying the resistance - actually tailoring the the tone affect. This is as per the Reverend & G&L bass cut circuit I mentioned in my earlier post. We found a position hagmeat liked & then measured the resistance of the pot at that setting, which was about 150K.

So in summary we are likely to do the following mods:

- Bypass 220K resistor on Deep switch position - gives more volume/fullness/richness than standard Deep switch
- Put 150K resistor across the existing cap on Hard switch position - gives more volume/fullness/richness than standard Hard switch but brighter, less lows & volume then new Deep setting
- Bypass 150K resistor on bridge pickup circuit - gives more volume/fullness/richness than current circuit.

 

[mavuser]

Well, hagmeat brought his JS-II over & we tested the operation of the switch with the alligator clips as I proposed to Frono & the results were pretty much as I suggested in a previous post.

With the switch in the hard position & then with the cap bypassed, the fullness & volume jumped markedly & it was louder, fuller than in the normal "Deep" position! Might have had a touch more highs the the Deep position as well at the very top end but hard to ascertain due to the volume differences. In fact the Hard position with the cap bypassed with the Volume knob on about 3.5 sounded pretty much the same as the normal Deep position on full volume! Not surprising as I mentioned before the 220K resistor forms a voltage divider with the volume pot. The effect was more marked than I initially surmised because it seems the pots are actually closer to 200K rather than 500k (hard to measure correctly when in circuit). As a result, half or more of the initial pickup signal doesn't get to the output when in the standard Deep mode!

We also shorted the 220K resistor on the Deep switch setting & got the expected response - volume/fullness boost. Did the same with the 150K resistor on the bridge pickup circuit with the same result.

So we wanted to still use the switch & I thought of putting a bigger cap across the existing cap on the Hard switch (with the shorting link now taken out). A bigger overall capacitance would still cut some lows but allow more through than the standard cap value to provide a fuller sound than the standard hard setting but a brighter sound than with the 220K resistor out of the circuit in the Deep setting (effectively Deep Position Plus). We found a few values which were decent.

Then had the idea of putting a pot across that cap in parallel & varying the resistance - actually tailoring the the tone affect. This is as per the Reverend & G&L bass cut circuit I mentioned in my earlier post. We found a position hagmeat liked & then measured the resistance of the pot at that setting, which was about 150K.

So in summary we are likely to do the following mods:

- Bypass 220K resistor on Deep switch position - gives more volume/fullness/richness than standard Deep switch
- Put 150K resistor across the existing cap on Hard switch position - gives more volume/fullness/richness than standard Hard switch but brighter, less lows & volume then new Deep setting
- Bypass 150K resistor on bridge pickup circuit - gives more volume/fullness/richness than current circuit.

A+ Zelja and Hagmeat. I actually follow this above post a lot more than some of the prior techy posts. based on your results I do not believe my JS1 has has been modified. But I am still very happy with the tone in the hard/treble position. I can get it to sound nice in the deep position too but right now for what I am using the bass for, it's rare i'd go there. remember i am only working with the neck pick up. i will at some point post a recording sample of my bass. no matter how lacking my skills are, and/or how lacking my recording set up is, i want you all to hear the bass. will figure that all out "soon." thanks to you both and all the rest on this thread! i like the humbucker and have heard it sound great on several different Guild basses, and other brand basses with other brand humbuckers as well.

but back to the Guild, Frono touched on a couple interesting points that may have been lost in all of this. he said the new GSR Starfire basses are the same NOS pickups from the 70's, but do not have the switch. i doubt many people here are interested in them for the $$ (i think they all sold on ebay anyway) and they are super rare anyway but for the purposes of covering the bases (no pun intended)...have we learned anything now about that GSR SF bass setup? seems to me from Zelja's results, maybe that setup would be preferred to the switch? i suppose many of you reading this could just mod it any which way regardless. but some of us aren't up for all that for one reason or another. and the GSR SF bass is unrealistic for most on more than one level, but...the set up is worthy of discussion because there's also some of those NOS humbuckers floating around Ebay and Craigslist. i have seen them priced from less than 100 to over 200. they don't come with any switches. they can be had they are certainly up for grabs. so maybe some opinions on that would help someone out there just shopping for a bass pick up. all of a sudden 1973 was 40 years ago! i would not be surprised if the demand for that 70's pickup were to slowly but steadily rise, as soon as they all disappear. its not a Dark Star but there appears to be a separate market slowly brewing (maybe more like marinating) for the Guild 70s bass humbucker. it sounds fantastic on my bass. and i have seen at least a couple Gibson guys fishing around for the Guild pickup/upgrade on this site.

 

[Happy Face]

The humbuckies appear on Ebay and TalkBass from time to time. I sold a pair for about $100 each a couple of years ago, as I recall. As you say, there does seem to be some demand out there.

 

[dlenaghan]

Ah, so that's why it sounds different.. (JS-II, capacitor)

Just wanted to check up something: the Guild capacitors are the .47 variety, right? (I might be using improper terminology here: I mean the thing that changes the tone pre-tone knob.)

I just realized that when I swapped out the electric harnesses on my Guilds (Tonestylers for the tone knobs and N-Tune tuners swapped for one of the volume knobs), I didn't ask the shop to put the capacitors back in place. So basically what I hear is straight Darkstar/Bisonic sound with no alteration, at least in the bypass position of the Tonestylers. I'm trying to find more specific info, but the sound is a bit different, which isn't so say it's bad: its monstrous, very clear, incredibly full-spectrum and very sensitive to playing dynamics, ie, everything you'd expect of a Bisonic or Darkstar. But the character is a big different and I just realized it's probably because that capacitor isn't filtering the signal pre-tone knob.

Do you think it'd be redundant to get the capacitor replaced if I already and using the Tonestylers?

 

[fronobulax]

Re: Ah, so that's why it sounds different.. (JS-II, capacitor)

Given the amount of similar discussion, I'm going to merge this because I think I tried to answer your question and Z corrected my answer

 

[hagmeat]

Zelja is the man ! Now I will be able to get an even better sound out of my JS2.
Having a glimpse of what it will sound like, I can`t wait to do the mods, the
foundations will shake ! Thanks again Z, you`re a champ.

 

[Zelja]

The deed is done. Hagmeat came over yesterday & the mods were carried out.

It was a bit difficult to leave the resistors in & just bypass them (it's tight in there!!) so both the 220K on the "Deep" side of the switch & the 150K going from the bridge pickup were removed & replaced with a shunt (used some resistor leads). Also took out the cap, placed a 150k resistor across it neatly, soldered them together in parallel & placed it back into the circuit - the "hard" position. Result, as previously described, were more volume in all positions & more beef in the hard position, but less beef (i.e. brighter) than in the "Deep" - this position sits somewhere between the Neck in "Deep" mode & the bridge position.

In summary the standard wiring was actually doing the following:
- Neck in "Hard" position - massive bass (& hence volume) cut
- Neck in "Deep" position - substantial volume cut, probably some slight loss of highs as well
- Bridge position - substantial volume cut, probably some slight loss of highs as well

Updated schematic below:

 

[fronobulax]

Still very interested in this. Distracted by Newark Street Starfire basses...

For historical reference, I found the original hang tag from my bass describing the switch.

"UP position, toward pickup: Normal tone. Full, rich bass.
DOWN position: Tone changes to a hard, more treble sound."