Odd location for a fret??
- Thread starter beecee
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johnreardon
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It's just a zero fret that is found on some guitars. Take a look at this link
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/String_Nut_or_Zero_Fret
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/String_Nut_or_Zero_Fret
SFIV1967
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Zero frets suck. The idea has merit but they wear horribly and are much more difficult to replace than a nut. Maybe a stainless zero fret would be better, but I’m not a fan.
79D25MMan
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Zero frets can be found a lot on 1970s Japanese acoustic guitars including the Epiphones of that era. Zero frets can be beneficial at times, as they can eliminate a need for a re-slot on your nut. I owned a Lincoln-Wood label FT-120 that also had a zero fret, great guitar! Super affordable, durable fun guitars. They also have bolt-on necks, which is a cost saving manufacturing technique but one that can save you the heartache of a costly neck reset down the line. $100 or less I pick them up all day if in halfway decent shape. Cheers!
79D25MMan
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They're typically on budget level guitars and that is typically the case. The Epiphones of the 70s are not terrible in my opinion, but I have seen total disasters of a zero fret. I think Tim Sway on YouTube got in a guitar that the zero fret was lower than the nut slots, leading to horrendous intonation!
Canard
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I believe the idea behind zero frets was to even out the tonal/volume/sustain/resonance differences between open and fretted notes.
If you like the sound of a zero fret and are willing to put up with the long term maintenance issues discussed above, then so good.
They can be nice for some styles of Jazz playing.
Playing in open tunings with a zero fret sounds odd to my ears, though - the open string drones just don't sound right. And signature hook-licks that reply on a distinctive mix of open and fretted notes sound odd, too.
Generally not to my tastes.
If you like the sound of a zero fret and are willing to put up with the long term maintenance issues discussed above, then so good.
They can be nice for some styles of Jazz playing.
Playing in open tunings with a zero fret sounds odd to my ears, though - the open string drones just don't sound right. And signature hook-licks that reply on a distinctive mix of open and fretted notes sound odd, too.
Generally not to my tastes.
wileypickett
Senior Member
A number of pro players, inlcuding Leo Kottke, prefer guitars with zero frets.
Advantages are that the open strings sound the same as the fretted strings, whereas the open strings sound different at the nut. (Though you may have to have Leo Kottke's ears to tell the difference.)
The other advantage is that the string height is guaranteed to be consistent right dowen to the zero fret, whereas the string height is harder to set at the nut.
If you've ever noticed that notes you fret at the first fret sound slightly off, intonation wise, from the notes of the open strings, it's probably because the string height is off at the nut.
Even the pro builders get this wrong sometimes. I had a Taylor 12-string that drove me crazy because of this. I was constantly retuning. Finally, in exasperation, I capoed the guitar at the first fret, retuned, and voila! -- problem gone. That was how I first learned about the importance of getting the nut cut properly. I took it into my repair guy, who replaced the nut, and said, half kidding (I think), "Yeah, we wouldn't have this problem if we went back to the days of zero frets."
But to hold up, they need to be made of stainless steel as GAD notes.
Kottke supposedly tried to get Taylor to make their Kottke signature model (LKSM) guitars with zero frets -- Bob Taylor said no.
Advantages are that the open strings sound the same as the fretted strings, whereas the open strings sound different at the nut. (Though you may have to have Leo Kottke's ears to tell the difference.)
The other advantage is that the string height is guaranteed to be consistent right dowen to the zero fret, whereas the string height is harder to set at the nut.
If you've ever noticed that notes you fret at the first fret sound slightly off, intonation wise, from the notes of the open strings, it's probably because the string height is off at the nut.
Even the pro builders get this wrong sometimes. I had a Taylor 12-string that drove me crazy because of this. I was constantly retuning. Finally, in exasperation, I capoed the guitar at the first fret, retuned, and voila! -- problem gone. That was how I first learned about the importance of getting the nut cut properly. I took it into my repair guy, who replaced the nut, and said, half kidding (I think), "Yeah, we wouldn't have this problem if we went back to the days of zero frets."
But to hold up, they need to be made of stainless steel as GAD notes.
Kottke supposedly tried to get Taylor to make their Kottke signature model (LKSM) guitars with zero frets -- Bob Taylor said no.
79D25MMan
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I have not heard of the tonal aspect to a zero fret, very interesting. I had always thought they installed zero frets sheerly for maintenance and structural reasons. All the instruments I have owned with zero frets were typically low-buck Japanese guitars made from plywood, so I can't say I ever listened too keenly to their sound haha! Thanks for that information!
bobouz
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Honestly, I never met a ‘70s Japanese acoustic Epi I liked. At the time, I was looking at everything in the entry level arena, and they were at the bottom of my list.
During the ‘60s, Gibson had produced Epiphones in Kalamazoo on their Gibson production lines, but all that changed in 1970. The company they chose to produce their overseas acoustics was not putting out a product that measured up to the competition. Yamaha was busy producing some fine guitars, and in a few years, Takamine, Ibanez, & others came into the market with solid entries.
Guess I would just say - Proceed with caution!
During the ‘60s, Gibson had produced Epiphones in Kalamazoo on their Gibson production lines, but all that changed in 1970. The company they chose to produce their overseas acoustics was not putting out a product that measured up to the competition. Yamaha was busy producing some fine guitars, and in a few years, Takamine, Ibanez, & others came into the market with solid entries.
Guess I would just say - Proceed with caution!
79D25MMan
Junior Member
The Epi I owned was a late 70's "Lincoln-Wood" Japanese FT-120. The thing was cheap, beat, and modified! I got it in a package deal with a 1980 Gibson Marauder as a sort of throw in, and I ended up playing it more than the Gibson! Someone had routed the body for a 1980s Hot-rail pickup (that was not grounded btw!) NOT in the sound hole! Someone decided to stick it in the middle of the body! The truss rod cover and neck plate were missing, the tuners were mismatched, and someone clearly loved it hence the cigarette burn in the body!! I added a volume control and grounded the thing, then sold it for $75. Only guitar I regret selling. A lot of good memories with that guitar, and it was just so goofy I loved it! Played surprisingly well if you can believe it!
Guitar in a Belagio Hotel room, Las Vegas. Before I added the volume control.
After I added a volume control with a home-made dice knob!
IIRC, my '60s Country Gent had a zero fret, so not just on inexpensive imports.
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Old and new Gretches have had them and original Steinbergers have them. I’ve had multiple Gretches and currently have a Steinberger. Believe me, none of those are cheap or inexpensive.
bobouz
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Well, there are always exceptions to the rule in the world of guitars, but I was referring strictly to how the ‘70s Epi’s performed as acoustic instruments, and their overall build quality versus the competition’s offerings. Brushing that aside, sounds like you had a lot of fun playing it with that pickup in there!
Canard
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Well ... as has been noted above, the other reason for zero frets is speedy nut installation. On one hand, there is an increased cost to building a guitar with a zero fret. But on the other hand, with guitar necks a 1/1000" out here is a mile out somewhere else - so a poorly and hastily setup nut can lead to notes at the first, second and even third fret intoning considerably sharp - solution? Zero fret.
A few years back, I bought a Taylor GS-Mini for my daughter. I had to go through five or six before I found one that did not intone sharp on the C note on the B string and the F note on the high E string. Solution? Zero fret. The GS-Mini I choose is perfect, however. Lovely guitar.