New Member NBD - 66 Starfire 1

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Hi Folks,
Been trolling quite a bit in the past few weeks absorbing as much info as I could form this forum. Thanks for sharing. This weekend I just acquired a 66 SF bass. Seems to be in great condition. Serial number is in the mid 400s. Its the sound Ive been looking for and never found until now (slow learner). Sounds great from the start so I am trying to put to sleep, thoughts of modding at this point, as its all original I was told. There is 1 philip heads screw holding the G string saddle, so I guess almost all original. Only issue at this point is the bisonic pickup is slightly movable in the casing..ie If I turn the bass sideways or upside down it moves causing a sound as well thru the amp. Was there the typical foam under the pickup or what might have loosened to allow it to move ? Thanks for any feedback - JC

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Minnesota Flats

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Looks to be in nice shape cosmetically. I have a '90s Westerly SF2 with Guild Buckers, but haven't had the pleasure of owning or playing one as old as yours.

Enjoy!
 
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Welcome! Dunno about the pick-up issue, but I will let you know your Truss Rod Cover is mounted up-side-down!
ha thanks. I think I read something humorous about that somewhere. sign of a newbie or something , disclaimer ..I never removed it yet. neck seems perfect :)...maybe shouldve done more diligence.
 

GGJaguar

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Welcome to LTG and very nice first post! We have a few vintage bass experts who will be along shortly, I'm sure.
 

fronobulax

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Welcome. Looks pretty good. It did once have a screw loose, as you noted. I am used to seeing less color variation on the saddles but I'd want to inspect them before I even ventured an opinion about originality. It is also true that saddles were once black plastic and it's hard to guess when the switch was so maybe I'm hoping for a consistency that wasn't there early on.

No ideas on the PU. I've never had the problem or been motivated to pull mine. Anything @mellowgerman says would be trustworthy and based on better experience. I can't find the thread but @twocorgis had the transformer pulled from his '68 (irrelevant to you since the feature appeared min-'67) and I seem to recall pictures of the PUs after they had been pulled.
 
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Welcome. Looks pretty good. It did once have a screw loose, as you noted. I am used to seeing less color variation on the saddles but I'd want to inspect them before I even ventured an opinion about originality. It is also true that saddles were once black plastic and it's hard to guess when the switch was so maybe I'm hoping for a consistency that wasn't there early on.

No ideas on the PU. I've never had the problem or been motivated to pull mine. Anything @mellowgerman says would be trustworthy and based on better experience. I can't find the thread but @twocorgis had the transformer pulled from his '68 (irrelevant to you since the feature appeared min-'67) and I seem to recall pictures of the PUs after they had been pulled.
Thanks for the reply. The saddles do not look that consistent, notice the E saddle is smaller than the G as well as color diffs. Are replacements for these rosewood saddles easily attainable do you know ? Seem to work fine, even sound etc. thx!
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twocorgis

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Welcome. Looks pretty good. It did once have a screw loose, as you noted. I am used to seeing less color variation on the saddles but I'd want to inspect them before I even ventured an opinion about originality. It is also true that saddles were once black plastic and it's hard to guess when the switch was so maybe I'm hoping for a consistency that wasn't there early on.

No ideas on the PU. I've never had the problem or been motivated to pull mine. Anything @mellowgerman says would be trustworthy and based on better experience. I can't find the thread but @twocorgis had the transformer pulled from his '68 (irrelevant to you since the feature appeared min-'67) and I seem to recall pictures of the PUs after they had been pulled.
That thread is here, and of course, it wouldn't apply to the OP's bass (which looks like a beauty, BTW.)

As for the saddles, I just went through something similar with my now Dark Starred DeArmond Starfire. One of the screws holing up the metal saddle for the low E string fell off when I was showing it to @bassmyf at his gig last Friday night, and we both saw me put said screw back in the case pocket. I went to retrieve it and reinstall it on Saturday, and it had absolutely vanished! I thought I would be completely out of luck finding a replacement, but luckily, it's a fairly widely available screw. after a phone call to a buddy who had just worked on a @bassmyf's bass, I have one on the way. Hopefully sourcing a replacement for your bass won't be too difficult, especially if you have a good old school hardware store anywhere near you.
 

fronobulax

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Picture copied from Sandy's thread since the expected value of the thread was the underside of the PU and "the well".

IMG_1446.jpg


On the OP's bass I would say either the E is the only original saddle or the A and D are the only originals. If I can't waffle I'll go for the original E.

It is believed that the Newark Street saddles will fit. You can buy a complete bridge assembly, that includes the saddles, for $50 but they don't seem to sell them separately. Sometimes an Authorized Repair Shop can get parts that end users can't. I might consider buying some ASAP. The new Starfire I uses a different bridge and it is easy to imagine that when the current Starfire IIs sell out they might not make more for a while and thus not stock parts.
 

mellowgerman

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Sounds to me like the bobbin of your pickup has come unglued from the chrome surround. Easy fix to just reglue it, but I'd make sure it's a safe glue (i.e. won't react chemically with any of the existing parts). There is not supposed to be any foam under there though that could solve your problem too, as long as it's firm enough to support the full weight of the bobbin.
As for the saddles, I don't think I've ever seen an early Starfire like yours ('65 or '66 with the bridge/middle position Bisonic) that had wooden saddles. I believe those weren't introduced until after the pickup moved to the neck position. My assumption would be that somebody had the idea in their head that the black solid plastic saddles were somehow lesser and would be improved upon if replaced by wooden saddles (or the original saddles cracked). I doubt it was a bad choice, but my old early '66 (upper 300's) sounded magnificent with the hard/solid plastic saddles. Just as satisfyingly beautiful sounding as all the other Starfires I've owned with Rosewood saddles!
In any case, cheers on the lovely new addition to your stable and welcome to LTG!
 
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Sounds to me like the bobbin of your pickup has come unglued from the chrome surround. Easy fix to just reglue it, but I'd make sure it's a safe glue (i.e. won't react chemically with any of the existing parts). There is not supposed to be any foam under there though that could solve your problem too, as long as it's firm enough to support the full weight of the bobbin.
As for the saddles, I don't think I've ever seen an early Starfire like yours ('65 or '66 with the bridge/middle position Bisonic) that had wooden saddles. I believe those weren't introduced until after the pickup moved to the neck position. My assumption would be that somebody had the idea in their head that the black solid plastic saddles were somehow lesser and would be improved upon if replaced by wooden saddles (or the original saddles cracked). I doubt it was a bad choice, but my old early '66 (upper 300's) sounded magnificent with the hard/solid plastic saddles. Just as satisfyingly beautiful sounding as all the other Starfires I've owned with Rosewood saddles!
In any case, cheers on the lovely new addition to your stable and welcome to LTG!
Thanks for the reply and all the replies. Ive been reading all your posts for weeks. mellowgerman, your point seems valid I think and based on my 'data collection' holds true. A table Ive created based on internet research. I guess I was trying to figured what serial # they moved the pickup to the neck and other timing. It does look like 490 and 525 have the black saddles (based on the photo in the link). Mine mid/upper 400s, (not sure why Im being tight with the serial:) Mine, seems to be the lowest serial bisonic I could find, now unless your upper 300s had the bisonic? i could add to my chart :) Excuse my nomenclature in the chart as I think the bisonic is single coil as well?. Single coil in the chart is refering to the previous pickup. PS. there is that odd duck 144 with the bisonic as well. not sure bout that, maybe modded.



#BA 144 Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom Bisonic sunburst https://www.gbase.com/gear/guild-starfire-bass-1965-sunburst
#BA 200 Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom single coil cherry https://www.gretsch-talk.com/media/albums/1966-guild-starfire-bass-restoration.660/
#BA 229 Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom single coil sunburst https://www.gbase.com/gear/guild-starfire-bass-1966-3-tone-sunburst
#BA 245 Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom single coil sunburst https://reverb.com/item/41173198-gu...are&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=41173198
#BA 256 Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom single coil sunburst https://reverb.com/item/41173198-gu...are&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=41173198
#BA 270 Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom single coil cherry https://www.eliteguitars.net/1966-guild-starfire
#BA 4XX Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom Bisonic MINE. cherry
#BA 490 Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom Bisonic cherry https://www.talkbass.com/threads/1966-guild-starfire-bridge-position-pup.1292703/
#BA 525 Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom Bisonic sunburst https://www.talkbass.com/threads/1966-guild-starfire-i-semi-hollowbody-bass-w-ohsc.1475669/
#BA 580 Neck Pickup Hagstrom Bisonic refin light https://entertainment.ha.com/itm/vi...1225-83019.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515
#BA 60X Neck Pickup Hagstrom Bisonic sunburst https://www.talkbass.com/threads/19...t-w-original-hagstrom-pickup-and-hsc.1071926/
#BA 606 Neck Pickup Hagstrom Bisonic Cherry https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1966-guild-starfire-sunburst-electric-20179540
#BA 634 Neck Pickup Hagstrom Bisonic Cherry https://ish.guitars/products/guild-starfire-1
#BA 647 Neck Pickup Hagstrom Bisonic Cherry https://reverb.com/p/guild-starfire-bass-cherry-red-1966 asking $1800
 
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lungimsam

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Congrats on the bass!!!
Hagstrom saddles have about a half-mm shallower slot in them than 2013 NS Starfire I (per guildbassparts’ brass Hagstrom design replacements I put on my NS Starfire I ). But that means the NS should work on yours. I bet an email to cordoba would get you 4 in the mail, but quick. They will PayPal invoice you for the saddles. They did so for a replacement nut for me when it wasn’t for sale on the site.
Or, you could always hew your own from any type of wood. Should be easy and fun to make.
 

fronobulax

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Thanks for the reply and all the replies. Ive been reading all your posts for weeks. mellowgerman, your point seems valid I think and based on my 'data collection' holds true. A table Ive created based on internet research. I guess I was trying to figured what serial # they moved the pickup to the neck and other timing. It does look like 490 and 525 have the black saddles (based on the photo in the link). Mine mid/upper 400s, (not sure why Im being tight with the serial:) Mine, seems to be the lowest serial bisonic I could find, now unless your upper 300s had the bisonic? i could add to my chart :) Excuse my nomenclature in the chart as I think the bisonic is single coil as well?. Single coil in the chart is refering to the previous pickup. PS. there is that odd duck 144 with the bisonic as well. not sure bout that, maybe modded.



#BA 144 Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom Bisonic sunburst https://www.gbase.com/gear/guild-starfire-bass-1965-sunburst
#BA 200 Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom single coil cherry https://www.gretsch-talk.com/media/albums/1966-guild-starfire-bass-restoration.660/
#BA 229 Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom single coil sunburst https://www.gbase.com/gear/guild-starfire-bass-1966-3-tone-sunburst
#BA 245 Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom single coil sunburst https://reverb.com/item/41173198-gu...are&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=41173198
#BA 256 Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom single coil sunburst https://reverb.com/item/41173198-gu...are&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=41173198
#BA 270 Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom single coil cherry https://www.eliteguitars.net/1966-guild-starfire
#BA 4XX Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom Bisonic MINE. cherry
#BA 490 Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom Bisonic cherry https://www.talkbass.com/threads/1966-guild-starfire-bridge-position-pup.1292703/
#BA 525 Bridge (sweetspot) Hagstrom Bisonic sunburst https://www.talkbass.com/threads/1966-guild-starfire-i-semi-hollowbody-bass-w-ohsc.1475669/
#BA 580 Neck Pickup Hagstrom Bisonic refin light https://entertainment.ha.com/itm/vi...1225-83019.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515
#BA 60X Neck Pickup Hagstrom Bisonic sunburst https://www.talkbass.com/threads/19...t-w-original-hagstrom-pickup-and-hsc.1071926/
#BA 606 Neck Pickup Hagstrom Bisonic Cherry https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1966-guild-starfire-sunburst-electric-20179540
#BA 634 Neck Pickup Hagstrom Bisonic Cherry https://ish.guitars/products/guild-starfire-1
#BA 647 Neck Pickup Hagstrom Bisonic Cherry https://reverb.com/p/guild-starfire-bass-cherry-red-1966 asking $1800

Once upon a time I believed that Guilds in general and Starfire basses in particular left the factory in chronological order and that you could track features by date. You could make statements like "All serial numbers less than BA-XXX had this feature and BA-XXX and later didn't have it, or perhaps had something else instead." I have since learned that Guild didn't work that way and there are always exceptions to serial number based generalizations. Before I realized the futility I gathered data to find the serial number that signaled the shift from the straight bridge to the harp bridge and the serial number that signaled the introduction of the suck switch. I used to say the two features changed at the same time and that they appeared between BA-1459 and BA-1472. But then I saw BA-1407 which has the straight bridge and the suck switch. My interest in gathering and maintaining the archive withered.

But, from scanning the archive I note that the lowest serial neck position I have is BA-554 and BA-549 is the highest sweet spot.

It is difficult for me to say, with confidence, whether a picture shows black plastic or wooden saddles. I might argue that BA-416 (sweetspot) has wooden saddles and maybe one or two other sweetspotters do.

My pic of BA-144 shows a cherry finish with a replaced bridge which is not the guitar you linked to. There is almost certainly a data entry error somewhere.

There are at least three different factory pickups in use before BA-357. Last time I tried to make sense out of it and assuming there were no replacements I mischaracterized, they started out with the Bisonic, then used two different pickups (we agreed on the names and there are pictures elsewhere but someone else can search) then finalized on the Bisonic until circa 1970 and the Guild humbucker appeared.

With the usual caveats I believe many Bisonics were single coil (and not humbuckers) but some Bisonics had two magnets, not one. Again there is discussion elsewhere.

And now I am off to talk to @GAD about ways to collaborate so that my collection can be returned online and others can contribute...
 

mavuser

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BA-1499 has the straight bridge and suck switch.

there is also variation in pot and cap values and manufactures, across the entire spectrum.
 
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So true the adhesive holding the pickup to the frame dried out. My tech fixed with 4 drops of a construction type adhesive that was suggested from a tech at Guild. Pretty clean looking underneath, and 1 magnet. I had the chance to A/B this bass with a 70 SF2 and I must say I have no regret in getting the SF1. Maybe I got lucky. My SF1 with flats was so much clearer and rounder than anything I could get out of all the controls on the SF2 with rounds. Happy camper. Will get the test with my Jefferson Airplane band - Reverend Jefferson at the Turning Point in Piermont NY on Oct 16. Thanks again for all the info.
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mellowgerman

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So true the adhesive holding the pickup to the frame dried out. My tech fixed with 4 drops of a construction type adhesive that was suggested from a tech at Guild. Pretty clean looking underneath, and 1 magnet. I had the chance to A/B this bass with a 70 SF2 and I must say I have no regret in getting the SF1. Maybe I got lucky. My SF1 with flats was so much clearer and rounder than anything I could get out of all the controls on the SF2 with rounds. Happy camper. Will get the test with my Jefferson Airplane band - Reverend Jefferson at the Turning Point in Piermont NY on Oct 16. Thanks again for all the info.
20211005_164935_resized.jpg

Very nice. My '66 was also a single magnet specimen. Sounded great. On later models you will see the push-push switch which was the main issue for tone on those basses. Of course tone is subjective, but functionally, that switch does not allow the full signal of the pickup(s) to come through in either of it's two positions. A lot of Starfire owners have bypassed this switch and are typically floored by the newly unearthed, clear yet huge tone.

Even though this does not apply in your basses switchless circuit, I did an experiment on the topic, documented here, with one of my former Starfires: https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/index.php?threads/the-definitive-tone-suck-slaying-thread.201379

On a side note, I think you've got a great bass there for a Jefferson Airplane tribute band. The position of the pickup (being neither in the bridge nor the neck) gets a good approximation of Casady's late 60's tone. His settings, electronics, and pickup positions changed over that prime period of the band, but he always seemed to dial in a very focused tone, drawing in large part from the bridge position and blending in a little extra warmth and girth from the neck. I found with my old '66 that the tone was already in the ballpark, since the pickup position gives you more girth than the standard bridge position, but more attack than the standard neck position. Though the later neck-position SFB-I models were also amazing (and preferable if one is going for Phil Lesh tones), it is a little harder for them to get into Crown of Creation territory.
 

fronobulax

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That’s pretty much the position of the pickup on the Casady signature Epiphone bass as well.

We call that position on a Starfire I the "sweet spot" and you can search if you like. There are some threads about the relationship between the sweet spot location and the location of the bridge pickup of a Starfire II and a conclusion that the sweet spot is slightly closer to the neck.

I would consider a sweet spot '66 a tonal upgrade to my '67 neck position but the sweet spot Newark Street doesn't compare in tone for me, so I think the "vintageness" of the Bisonic is more important than the position for what I want to hear.

Positioning a bass pickup is an art and not a science. Putting the pickup at a location that is about 3/4 of the scale length seems to be an accepted compromise in terms of which harmonics dominate.

The Gibson Grabber bass, from the '70's, actually had a PU that could be moved to various places along the string so the player, not the builder, decided where it belonged. My recollection of contemporary commentary was that it was an interesting idea but not especially practical. Players would set it and forget it and use tone controls (bass or amp) to change the sound. It was a little more popular with experimenters and studio players who generally had the time move the PU and then dial in the tone.
 
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