My D25M

[Br1ck]

Aren't we talking two different properties of sound here? Would you argue that back and side materials have no effect on the sound? If a traditional flatback guitar is affected by materials, certainly an arched back will be. So we are talking about the physics of sound reflection as well as the sonority of the tone, much like the source of the sound through various speakers. The content can vary beginning with analogue or digital signal and the speaker's projection of that sound changes it according to the design.

With carbon fiber you can optimize design, but you can't make it sound exactly like wood. You can make it sound very good. I can assume builders experimented with Ovation like shapes, but settled on somewhat traditional bodies, and then played with the sound holes. And yes, I'd buy an Emerald in a heartbeat because they sound good.

 

[fronobulax]

Aren't we talking two different properties of sound here?

Perhaps.

I'm going by

unbraced arched back projects

and previous claims that, all other things being equal, arched backs are louder than flatbacks.

If anyone is talking about something else then "Nevermind".

 

[dreadnut]

I'd like to do a blind "taste test" between a D25 and an Ovation; I think I could tell the difference.

But yeah, my original answer was about how the D25's arched back makes it special. I think the projection is also due to no internal back bracing, which is another similarity with Ovations.

 

[bobouz]

I'd like to do a blind "taste test" between a D25 and an Ovation; I think I could tell the difference.

I could be wrapped up in mummy cloth, and would know which was which in two seconds as the Ovation slid off my leg!

 

[dreadnut]

Well I'm assuming someone else would be playing them...I would just be listening.

 

[hearth_man]

Definitely! My brother's '76 D25 archback was my introduction to great sounding guitars. I was 14 when he bought it new and it blew me away then and still does, 44 years and later.

 

[D30Man]

You love your D25 as much as I love mine, Dreadnut. I got mine out of it's case after a month of not playing it (which is a long time for me - I recently bought an Eastman E10SS I've been very much obsessed with) and was taken aback how much it rings! It is my one true "keeper". The others are replaceable to some degree. Mine is an '81 so fairly close to yours.Why are they so special? Don't ask me - I'm nowhere near gifted enough with vocabulary to explain why.

Hard not to get obsessed with an Eastman. Those guitars do not disappoint. Not better. Just different.

 

[D30Man]

Dread your D25M is older than me. Love it.

 

[D30Man]

The most memorable sounding Guild I have ever owned was a '79 D25... It was loud. It was dark. It was something special. I think if there is one model that Guild consistently nailed more than any other model, it was the D25.

 

[kostask]

I'd like to do a blind "taste test" between a D25 and an Ovation; I think I could tell the difference.

But yeah, my original answer was about how the D25's arched back makes it special. I think the projection is also due to no internal back bracing, which is another similarity with Ovations.

That would be a totally invalid test, due to the soundbaoard bracing differences between an archback D25 and any Ovation. To get to the crux of the point I am trying to make, is that an unbraced, arched back sounds different than a braced flat back. That being said, the idea behind the arched back is to try to "focus" and aid in projecting the sound forward. Both the arched back Guilds and Ovations (and any other arched back guitars) try to take advantage of this.

The idea that a back, braced or unbraced, flat or arched, makes a significant contribution to the tone of guitar is something that is very, very debatable. The experiment has been done. I don't remember if it was Torres or Ramirez, but in the 1930s, he took a solid wood top, braced it exactly as he did his very best guitars, and made a back of papier-mache. Sounded very close to what his other, all solid wood guitars sounded like.

I have cautioned people in the past to NOT fixate on any one aspect of a guitar's construction when trying to assess a guitar. Looking at a guitar, and seeing, say a rosewood back and sides, is a visual aspect and not really much of a tonal one. There are solid wood guitars made of highest quality woods imaginable, that do not sound good, just as there are laminate back and sides guitars that sound great. The back and side woods are a visual aspect, and only flavour/shade the tone; they are not the principle generators of tone.

Closer to the point at hand, I find it disturbing that people dismiss the Ovation guitars out of hand on the basis of their having a fibreglass/composite back when compared to Guild arched back acoustic guitars. If you have heard a full depth back Ovation, some are very good sounding guitars. And, even though Ovations have a very uniform back in terms of its mechanical properties, (certainly far more uniform than all wood guitars) two Ovations can indeed sound different. Considering that those backs are as uniform as they are, consider why they would sound dissimilar? It isn't the back that is making the difference. Also consider that the Ovation has existed since 1966, earlier than any arched back Guild. In both the case of the Ovation, and in the arched back Guilds, the backs do not resonate, they act a a reflector/mirror (almost), and so operate on the same basic principle. I'm not going to say that the principle is exactly the same, or that either have invented the principle (see acoustic archtops from tthe 1920s onward), but the ideas are basically the same.

 

[Barcaly J]

My D25M is officially 46 years old! Still going strong and has aged well. We have become like one.

It's not getting out of the house much lately, but neither am I.

Happy Birthday!!

 

[Br1ck]

I don't consider my 70 D 35 particularly vintage, but one time some twenty somethings were ogling it with reverence and were blown away by it being twice as old as they were. As always, perspective.

 

[West R Lee]

Tell you what Marc, my '79 D25M is one I'll never part with, both for sentimental reasons, and because after all these years, I still love the sound. I love the sound so much that here's what I've done.

As you know, I'm a rosewood guy at heart, but that has never meant I don't hold a special place for mahogany (I love maple too). A while back I bought a Collings D2HA......a rosewood dread with an Adirondack top, and my Lord how I love that guitar. Yet with all my rosewoods, and as beautiful as my DV73 was, it just NEVER got played. It took years to make the decision, but one factor in my decision to sell the DV73 was thinking I could take the proceeds and buy a nice Collings mahogany dread. Then I began reading details about the design of the Collings D1. In reading, Bill Collings said that he took what he felt were the greatest aspects of the Gibson Hummingbird, the Martin D18, and believe it or not, the Guild D25, and incorporate those aspects, along with what he perceived improvements to build the Collings D1.

I've not only sold my DV73, but also my '89 JF30-12 (too much work, but a damned beautiful guitar), both to LTG members, and have taken those proceeds and custom ordered not just a Collings D1, but a D1A. In the Collings world, an Adi top runs $1000. My D1A custom will be here in March as it takes Collings 4 1/2 months to turn out a dread from scratch. She will be a standard dread, with Honduran mahogany back and sides, Adirondack bracing (($275), I've had them alter the bracing to omit the tongue brace (resonance), gold open back Waverlys (nickel are standard), and a very light, Western shaded sunburst. She'll be here in March.

The love for my beloved D25 was an enormous factor in my decision. I remember getting goose bumps at times playing my D25M in college, and I'm looking to not only recapture that feeling, but this is a once in a lifetime opportunity for me to own my dream guitar, built to my specs.

So yes sir, I understand your love of your D25, I know the feeling. My old D25 is the reason for all of this. : )

West

 

[dreadnut]

That Collings sounds like it's gonna be beautiful. I'm a sucker for a nice 'burst.

If I were going to buy a Collings though, it would be a mandolin. I've had the opportunity to play some of them at Elderly Instruments, and boy do they bark!

 

[dreadnut]

I cleaned up the music cave, then I spent an hour caressing Louise, my old D25M. Fingerpicking with bare fingers/fingernails.

What a tone monster. Big bottom end and crisp higher notes with DA EJ19 PB medium lights. And she resonates all the way into next week.

It's just perfect for singing with. I can plug it in, sing with a mic, etc., but it excels at plain old straightforward acoustic.

Ended with CSN "4+20." in the neighborhood of "D." Just let those final notes ring on...Ahhhhh.

 

[West R Lee]

That Collings sounds like it's gonna be beautiful. I'm a sucker for a nice 'burst.

If I were going to buy a Collings though, it would be a mandolin. I've had the opportunity to play some of them at Elderly Instruments, and boy do they bark!

If they'll let me, I'll post a few pictures of her when she arrives Marc. I know Tom wants to see it too. : )

West

 

[dreadnut]

From my experience at Elderly Instruments, Collings are as close to perfection as you're going to get.

Not saying that the Martins, Taylors, Guilds aren't nice, but there is just something about Collings, hard to describe, but I know it when I see it and play it.

 

[Br1ck]

My feelings for Collings are the flip side. They don't have the tone I look for until they are thirty years old. Of course this is entirely subjective. I'm addicted to F 5 style instruments, and the mid $5,000s for a very plain Jane mandolin, except for their prime maple stash, is hard for me to swallow, and the tightness in a new Adirondak top, well, I don't have enough life left to waste three years for it to break in. Then there is the modern voicing. I'm old school there too. I've spent the better part of five years trying to pull the trigger, but I played Northfield Big Mons and half the time liked them better.

During this time I built a mandolin that sounds pretty wonderful. Hence the three year wait for the top, and it got played a LOT. Last Nov. I walked into the store, and there was an 07 Weber Yellowstone Deluxe on consignment at a price I could not pass up. I picked up the Collings, played the Northfield, and liked the Weber. That it was $2000 less may have had something to do with it. But I'd told myself that this is what I'd have to find to buy a mandolin fully bound with a fern headstock inlay, so I wasn't going to leave it there.

I have Collings loving friends and we get along just fine, but the Martin tone is more my liking. You just have to find what works for you. Good luck on your build. $1000 for Adi didn't even get braces included. Sheesh.

 

[West R Lee]

Oh yea, I've heard the "years to break in" story myself, many times. Funny, when I got my D2Ha, I had to tone it down. If it gets any louder, I'll have to fill it with styrofoam. But I'm sure this one will sound like a gut bucket. It'll probably open up next century. Oh, and soooo sweet and subtle played fingerstyle. But you're right, different strokes, different folks.

West

 

[West R Lee]

My feelings for Collings are the flip side. They don't have the tone I look for until they are thirty years old. Of course this is entirely subjective. I'm addicted to F 5 style instruments, and the mid $5,000s for a very plain Jane mandolin, except for their prime maple stash, is hard for me to swallow, and the tightness in a new Adirondak top, well, I don't have enough life left to waste three years for it to break in. Then there is the modern voicing. I'm old school there too. I've spent the better part of five years trying to pull the trigger, but I played Northfield Big Mons and half the time liked them better.

During this time I built a mandolin that sounds pretty wonderful. Hence the three year wait for the top, and it got played a LOT. Last Nov. I walked into the store, and there was an 07 Weber Yellowstone Deluxe on consignment at a price I could not pass up. I picked up the Collings, played the Northfield, and liked the Weber. That it was $2000 less may have had something to do with it. But I'd told myself that this is what I'd have to find to buy a mandolin fully bound with a fern headstock inlay, so I wasn't going to leave it there.

I have Collings loving friends and we get along just fine, but the Martin tone is more my liking. You just have to find what works for you. Good luck on your build. $1000 for Adi didn't even get included. Sheesh.

Oh yes, the $1000 for the top is certainly built in. "A" designates Adirondack, and that charge is built into any D1A. The Adi braces are an upgrade from there, and there is an upcharge.

West