Specifically, according to Rick Turner (the "T" in DTAR), the front edge of the waveform produced by the piezo element overloads the front end (input) of the preamp. Running it at 18V instead of 9V gives the preaamp input more headroom to allow it to accept the incoming signal without overloading.
Mexican Built Guilds
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Nuuska
Enlightened Member
Not quite - despite of Mr T saying so.
Even if the system is running at 1,5V battery it can handle the peak signal, if INPUT ATTENUATION is set correctly.
The higher the operation voltage is - the higher output signal can be achieved.
Other factors speak for higher voltage, too. Noise floor etc.
chazmo
Super Moderator
Interesting debate, and great information!
For the record, I was never overly thrilled with the sound of the D-TAR Wavelength (UST-only) system. I mean it was still obviously a piezo sound. D-TAR MultiSource, however, was the best acoustic-sounding system I ever heard, which had the blended Wavelength in it with a condenser mic. on the circuit board.
Anyway, I'm not familiar with two 9V battery pack system that Richard said was installed in his Arcos F-50.... So, I'd really like to know what it is.
For the record, I was never overly thrilled with the sound of the D-TAR Wavelength (UST-only) system. I mean it was still obviously a piezo sound. D-TAR MultiSource, however, was the best acoustic-sounding system I ever heard, which had the blended Wavelength in it with a condenser mic. on the circuit board.
Anyway, I'm not familiar with two 9V battery pack system that Richard said was installed in his Arcos F-50.... So, I'd really like to know what it is.
I was only paraphrasing what Rick Turner said. It is easy to just set up an input divider (=attenuator), but then you end up attenuating everything, including the quiet passages where the strings are not struck very hard. In his research, Rick Turner showed that piezo elements (transducers) can hit peaks of over 6V, but also put out signals way below 1V most of the time. In order to accomodate the 6V peaks without input overload, without having so much attenuation that the regular passages are in the noise floor, he went with an 18V supply. It isn't just the peaks that need to be accomodated, but the regular passages must also sound clean. Cranking up the attenuation will definitely accomodate the 6V peaks, but then, with that much attenuation, the regular passages get noisy. In other words, you need accomodate a lot of voltage swing in the input, and just attenuating, in Rick Turner's research, doesn't get it done.
Also, just as background, the DTAR system, when it was first moved to the 18V supply, used the 2 X 9V batteries, but shortly into production was moved to a 2 X1.5V battery system which used a DC-DC converter to generate the 18V power supply. I can't remember if it was 2 AA or 2 AAA batteries. I'm pretty sure that the Lock 'N Load system used 2 AAA batteries, but the off the shelf system I am not so sure of.
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chazmo
Super Moderator
Kostas, the early D-TAR used 2x9V batteries? I didn't know that. So, yeah, that's probably what's going on here.
Oh, and by the way, the Lock 'n Load was two AAs, I think.
Oh, and by the way, the Lock 'n Load was two AAs, I think.
GuildFS4612CE
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The link I posted previously has this info:
D-TAR LOAD 'N LOCK WAVE-LENGTH GUITAR PICKUP/18V PREAMP, EXTERNAL BATTERY ACCESS
The D-TAR Load 'N Lock system works in conjunction with the D-Tar Wave-Length Under-Saddle acoustic guitar pickup system. Load 'N Lock makes changing your AA batteries easy to do. Simply unscrew the endpin collar, remove the old batteries, and pop in new ones. A quarter turn of the collar is all you need to lock them in place.
The D-TAR Wave-Length acoustic pickup system combines a thin, piezo transducer with an 18V, low-noise preamp. Eighteen volts translates to twice the headroom and dynamic range of a typical 9V system, so you can strum extra hard without experiencing the dreaded piezo "quack."
To get its 18V, the Wave-Length requires only 2 standard AA batteries. The secret is a proprietary voltage power booster. In addition, the Wave-Length's pre-amp has 2 adjustable trim pots—1 low-frequency shelving and 1 high-frequency shelving. The result is transparent amplification of the natural timbre of your acoustic guitar with minimal coloration.
The Wave-Length volume and tone module's controls are located in your acoustic guitar's soundhole for easy access. With all the controls at your fingertips, and the Wave-Length preamp itself residing at the guitar's endpin, there's no loss of tone or dampening of vibrations due to batteries and electronics attached to a side-mounted pre-amp assembly.
D-TAR - Duncan/Turner Acoustic Research
Seymour Duncan and Rick Turner are two legends who spent years working with musicians, perfecting their tone. Seymour founded his self-named company in 1978 which has become well-known for its wide variety of guitar and bass pickups used by just about every name player from Billie Joe Armstrong to Angus Young. Rick co-founded Alembic, was president of Gibson Labs West Coast R&D Division, co-founded Highlander Musical Audio making piezo acoustic guitar pickups for Lindsay Buckingham, Ry Cooder, David Lindley, and Andy Summers, and runs his own Renaissance Guitars. Now Seymour and Rick are working together to create innovative products for acoustic musicians. Their D-TAR motto: "With respect to acoustic tone."
Features
Piezo transducer
18-volt low-noise preamp
Volume and tone module
Endpin collar
Unitary full length pickup accommodates virtually all 6-string spacings
Thin cable design is easy to install in guitars with either 1/8" or 3/32" saddles, often with no modification to the saddle slot.
High Headroom allows for twice the dynamic range of a 9-volt system.
Uses two AA batteries
Dual Source Capability allows the user to combine the wave-length with a magnetic pickup or soundboard transducer for greater complexity of signal
Adjustable bass and treble trim controls
D-TAR LOAD 'N LOCK WAVE-LENGTH GUITAR PICKUP/18V PREAMP, EXTERNAL BATTERY ACCESS
The D-TAR Load 'N Lock system works in conjunction with the D-Tar Wave-Length Under-Saddle acoustic guitar pickup system. Load 'N Lock makes changing your AA batteries easy to do. Simply unscrew the endpin collar, remove the old batteries, and pop in new ones. A quarter turn of the collar is all you need to lock them in place.
The D-TAR Wave-Length acoustic pickup system combines a thin, piezo transducer with an 18V, low-noise preamp. Eighteen volts translates to twice the headroom and dynamic range of a typical 9V system, so you can strum extra hard without experiencing the dreaded piezo "quack."
To get its 18V, the Wave-Length requires only 2 standard AA batteries. The secret is a proprietary voltage power booster. In addition, the Wave-Length's pre-amp has 2 adjustable trim pots—1 low-frequency shelving and 1 high-frequency shelving. The result is transparent amplification of the natural timbre of your acoustic guitar with minimal coloration.
The Wave-Length volume and tone module's controls are located in your acoustic guitar's soundhole for easy access. With all the controls at your fingertips, and the Wave-Length preamp itself residing at the guitar's endpin, there's no loss of tone or dampening of vibrations due to batteries and electronics attached to a side-mounted pre-amp assembly.
D-TAR - Duncan/Turner Acoustic Research
Seymour Duncan and Rick Turner are two legends who spent years working with musicians, perfecting their tone. Seymour founded his self-named company in 1978 which has become well-known for its wide variety of guitar and bass pickups used by just about every name player from Billie Joe Armstrong to Angus Young. Rick co-founded Alembic, was president of Gibson Labs West Coast R&D Division, co-founded Highlander Musical Audio making piezo acoustic guitar pickups for Lindsay Buckingham, Ry Cooder, David Lindley, and Andy Summers, and runs his own Renaissance Guitars. Now Seymour and Rick are working together to create innovative products for acoustic musicians. Their D-TAR motto: "With respect to acoustic tone."
Features
Piezo transducer
18-volt low-noise preamp
Volume and tone module
Endpin collar
Unitary full length pickup accommodates virtually all 6-string spacings
Thin cable design is easy to install in guitars with either 1/8" or 3/32" saddles, often with no modification to the saddle slot.
High Headroom allows for twice the dynamic range of a 9-volt system.
Uses two AA batteries
Dual Source Capability allows the user to combine the wave-length with a magnetic pickup or soundboard transducer for greater complexity of signal
Adjustable bass and treble trim controls
davismanLV
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There you go. Thanks, Jane!!
I think only the very first ones did. They were only a stop gap until the DC-DC converter was completed and went into production. This is strictly from memory. Rick Turner was NOT happy with the dual 9V batteries, as he felt they added too much weight and could throw off the balance of the guitar, even though they were attached to the neck block or other non-vibrating part of a guitar, so he moved to the dual AAs and a DC-DC converter. I think that it was quite a bit later when they reworked the Wavelength into the Dual Source (added an in-body microphone, and the PCB with tone controls just inside the sound hole opening). The original Wavelength preamp was a small metal box with recessed pots for volume and tone (and there were ways to solder in your own volume and tone controls, and just solder them into the preamp ).
Like I said, the Lock 'N Load was two batteries, but I don't recall which type (AA or AAA). It was a neat idea, being able to change batteries without having to restring the guitar. Some people didn't like the bigger end pin hole, but things have to fit somehow, and DTAR never used the sides of the guitar for mounting electronics, so not many other alternatives.
Nuuska
Enlightened Member
2x9V battery = 2x50g = 100g + clips @ neck block
2xAA battery = 2x20g = 40g + Lock 'N Load housing @ end pin
Easy change of batteries - 10-0 for AA's
As of twice the dynamics etc for 18V vs 9V - that means 6dB - and while technically it indeed is twice the dynamics and output volume - our hearing perceives that "only a little" more - for it to feel twice as loud it would have to be at least 10dB SPL which means 20dB voltage.
2xAA battery = 2x20g = 40g + Lock 'N Load housing @ end pin
Easy change of batteries - 10-0 for AA's
As of twice the dynamics etc for 18V vs 9V - that means 6dB - and while technically it indeed is twice the dynamics and output volume - our hearing perceives that "only a little" more - for it to feel twice as loud it would have to be at least 10dB SPL which means 20dB voltage.
The Lock "n Load was not available as a third party add-on system, but only as a factory OEM install. The aftermarket DTAR Wavelenght used a small, 2 X AA battery holder on the neck block, and still does. The only factory installed Lock 'N Load that I can recall seeing is the Guild one, no other guitar builders. I am not sure if it was custom designed for Guild or not, but it may have been.
Your numbers for the voltages are off by a bit. The supply voltage for the input preamp is not 9V in a 9V system, nor is it 18V for an 18V system. By the time the voltage gets to the actual input preamp it will have lost 2.0-2.5V in both cases. So you are looking at 6.5-7V for a 9V system, and 15.5 to 16V for an 18V system. Trying to get a 6V signal (at peak) through an input preamp with a 6.5-7V supply cleanly is very close to impossible, as the input signal is swinging the inputs very close to the supply rails. Getting that same 6V peak signal through a input preamp with 15.5-16V supply a is almost trivial, and simply more economical/cost effective. This is the crux of Rick Turner's decision to go to an 18V supply.
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