M-85

fronobulax

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The vintage Starfire II's I have pics of have the pole pieces closer to neck on both pickups like mellow's new to him M85-II. However my JS II with humbuckers has the pole pieces as far apart as they can be - on the neck side of the neck pickup and on the bridge side of the bridge pickup. Kurt's two M85-II's (a couple posts above) show that. I'd say the M85-II is the factory configuration.

That said, "right" is a matter of preference. It is theoretically possible to get a change in tone by flipping one or both pickups and if someone can hear the theory then the pickup stays flipped.
 

mellowgerman

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Looks like a great addition, mellow...

I have a few questions about what I see in your beautiful picture. Please pardon the ignorance!! :)

Are those the original bisonic pickups on both basses? Are the pickups reversed between the Starfire and the M-85? I mean the large pole pieces face the fretboard on the M-85, but they face the bridge on the Starfire. And forgive my ignorance, but are the pickups "supposed" to be upside-down from each other between neck and bridge? Both your guitars seem to be in the same direction, though they seem opposite from each other.

Both Bisonics in the M85 are original and (as far as I know) they are facing the "stock" way. The nice thing with Bisonics is that (if the four mounting-screw holes are drilled in a centered fashion along the edges of the pickup cavity) you can flip them 180degrees, which moves the pole pieces about 0.5" or so and certainly results in an audible difference. I've tried just about every which way and found that I like both pickup coils closer to the bridge on the Starfire, when combined with the onboard active filter electronics. Might change my mind or flip them around again to switch things up, but for now I dig it that way! Regarding the Starfire, it has the original Bisonic in the neck position (which I just found out to be the case) and a vintage-spec Novak Bisonic in the bridge position. THIS is actually a whole other can of worms that I still need to unpack here (probably tomorrow when I have more time to write) but in a nutshell, when I first acquired this Starfire, it just had a single neck pickup, which I was told was an original Bisonic. However, a year or so later, I was made to believe that it was actually an early specimen/prototype Dark Star (evidence for this was supposedly that the height-adjustment paddles were flat on the screw end and the "low" resistance reading). I accepted this to be fact, since the person who informed me of it is somebody I hold in high regarded when it comes to pickups and is also among the top authorities on Bisonic history, given the number of originals he has reverse engineered. However, when I got this M85 the other day (keep in mind it's the same year of manufacture as my Starfire) and found that the pickups in it where identical and even had almost the same resistance reading, I started to doubt the claim that my Starfire's pickup was an early prototype Dark Star. I mean, what are the chances that I get two very-good-condition 1970 Guild basses with Bisonics that turn out to be early Dark Star prototypes? Seemed unlikely. Well, today I reached out to Fred Hammon (designer/maker of Dark Star pickups) and he confirmed that those pickups were definitely NOT his work and that there is absolutely no reason to believe that they are not original Hagstrom Bisonics. Fred said Hagstrom made them both with rounded paddles and squared paddles, just at different times. The fascinating thing then is also that it seems later Hagstrom Bisonic pickups (by later I mean the ones found in the very late 60's and early 70's basses) were actually wound to a lower resistance (with readings between 7.5k and 8k). To further add to the excitement, the neck position Bisonic in my M85 only has 1 magnet, whereas the bridge position Bisonic has 2! This was something that I (and maybe others) had thought may have only occurred in '67ish 2-pickup basses, in the sense that Guild may have been using up old single-magnet Bisonics and bringing in new dual-magnet Bisonics... but now that seems unlikely. Maybe the neck position on dual-Bisonic basses was intentionally a single-magnet pickup to better balance tones or output between the two pickups? Still trying to wrap my mind around all the revelations this bass hath bestowed unto me...

Okay, sorry, that was a long-winded veery answer, but I had to get into all that nitty gritty since I had to say that the neck pickup in the Starfire IS actually original. Which is what I said 6 years ago, then 5 years ago revoked that statement publicly, until I finally found out TODAY that it actually is the original Hagstrom Bisonic pickup! Okay, now I have to go to bed. Will write more on this bass tomorrow!
 
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lungimsam

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Fascinating and interesting developments!!
Congrats on the new bass. Can’t wait to read the write up and hear some sound samples.
 

chazmo

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Hey, thanks for taking the time to write all that up, mellow! I'm in the process of digesting it all, but I take it this is just as fascinating to you as it is to me. Great stuff! Enjoy the journey, mellow!
 

mellowgerman

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saturday night alright

IMG_20230520_221359770~2.jpg
 

lungimsam

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I bet it sounds fantastic through that amp!!
 

mellowgerman

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Well, I've now spent a week with my newly adopted 1970 M-85 bass and I've gotta say, I am so happy to have it in the stable!

The neck carve and feel is almost identical to my 1970 Starfire, which is excellent! As comfy as they get (at least to my hands). Compared to 60's Starfires I've owned and played, these 1970 necks feel just a smidge chunkier. Maybe the shape of the carve changed a bit or maybe it's due to the poly finish they started in this year, even though it's not a heavy finish by any means. There is also no volute on these 1970 basses, but I have no preference in that regard one way or another.

As mentioned in a previous post, I had thought these early M85 basses were hollow-bodies with the addition of a block just underneath the bridge, so I was surprised to find that this one is actually proper semi-hollow, with a solid 3-piece maple block running down the center. Since it's a deep body, the center block is pretty massive, and correspondingly the bass is a bit heavier than the Starfire, though still under 9 lbs. Balances nicely on a strap with no discernible neck-dive.

Comparing the M85 to the Starfire unplugged the difference is pretty impressive! In this context, the Starfire is notably louder and has a much more mid-forward timbre. Notes resonate differently in different areas of the neck, with varying sustain, which is something I've experienced with most of my basses and have learned to use that variation strategically for different tone effects depending on the song. The M85 is acoustically pretty quiet, with a much thinner/brighter timbre, but notes resonate remarkably consistent across all areas of the fretboard and the sustain is exceptional. So in that regard, these two basses have wonderfully different qualities that can come in handy in different musical contexts. Both basses are overall very resonant and, kind of like a big lovey-dovey purring lap-cat, their necks and bodies vibrate like crazy when notes are ringing out.
Some may wonder why even analyze the unplugged timbre of an electric instrument, but keep in mind, all the sound of the electric signal starts with the vibrating string, so I think these acoustic qualities are important to note, especially with broad-frequency response pickups like the Hagstrom Bisonic. The whole allure of these pickups is that they faithfully capture all of the nuances of the vibrating string (or at least as much as a passive pickup can). In my experience, the nature of string vibration directly corresponds with the resonant character of the wood of the instrument -- which can be good or bad, depending on a player's taste/preferences! I recall one Fender Precision bass that I didn't keep for very long because it had the most honky overpowering middy sound, that you could clearly hear unplugged too and which didn't go away even with a completely different set of strings. Similarly, I briefly had a Jack Casady Signature Epiphone bass that had super boomy notes in some areas of the neck and completely dead notes in others.

Anyway, plugged in, both basses offer huge, rich tones, that are clearly related, but easily distinguishable from each other -- granted the Starfire has an active resonant-filter preamp and the M85 has standard passive electronics, plus their pickups are oriented in opposite directions and the M85's pickups are slightly farther apart. That said, the barky mid-forwardness of the Starfire still comes through in comparison to the M85, which has a little more of a "scooped-mids" flavor. Both still have that lovely familiar Bisonic pickup clarity. I might add a spacer to each of the M85's pickups, just to bring them up a little closer to the strings. There are stock risers in place, but they might be a little low for my preference.

Another interesting thing to note about this bass is the impressive stiffness of the neck. A lot of times, after 53 years of string tension, you run into the need to heat-press or reset the neck. Absolutely not the case here, in fact the truss rod is practically pristine and it's actually difficult to get a "normal" amount of relief! Considering my tendency to "dig in" when a jam really gets cookin, any kind of low tension string won't really work for me on this bass, which unfortunately includes my beloved NOS Maxima flatwounds. I put on a set of Maximas but their relatively low tension barely creates any bow in the neck. Even with the truss nut completely loosened, the neck was pretty much flat. Really not a big issue though, as I always keep various extra string sets on hand. I found a nice heavy, worn-in set of D'Addario Chromes that sound excellent on this bass and the extra tension gets the perfect amount of relief. On a related note, the impressive stiffness of the neck may well result in some of that very unusual evenness of resonance and sustain across the fretboard, that I would normally only expect from some kind of carbon-fiber or aluminum neck.

Off-hand, that's all I can think of to report at the moment. Will keep adding thoughts and observations (and eventually recordings) to this thread as they come along.

Thanks again, Happy!
 

Happy Face

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Well, I've now spent a week with my newly adopted 1970 M-85 bass and I've gotta say, I am so happy to have it in the stable!

The neck carve and feel is almost identical to my 1970 Starfire, which is excellent! As comfy as they get (at least to my hands). Compared to 60's Starfires I've owned and played, these 1970 necks feel just a smidge chunkier. Maybe the shape of the carve changed a bit or maybe it's due to the poly finish they started in this year, even though it's not a heavy finish by any means. There is also no volute on these 1970 basses, but I have no preference in that regard one way or another.

As mentioned in a previous post, I had thought these early M85 basses were hollow-bodies with the addition of a block just underneath the bridge, so I was surprised to find that this one is actually proper semi-hollow, with a solid 3-piece maple block running down the center. Since it's a deep body, the center block is pretty massive, and correspondingly the bass is a bit heavier than the Starfire, though still under 9 lbs. Balances nicely on a strap with no discernible neck-dive.

Comparing the M85 to the Starfire unplugged the difference is pretty impressive! In this context, the Starfire is notably louder and has a much more mid-forward timbre. Notes resonate differently in different areas of the neck, with varying sustain, which is something I've experienced with most of my basses and have learned to use that variation strategically for different tone effects depending on the song. The M85 is acoustically pretty quiet, with a much thinner/brighter timbre, but notes resonate remarkably consistent across all areas of the fretboard and the sustain is exceptional. So in that regard, these two basses have wonderfully different qualities that can come in handy in different musical contexts. Both basses are overall very resonant and, kind of like a big lovey-dovey purring lap-cat, their necks and bodies vibrate like crazy when notes are ringing out.
Some may wonder why even analyze the unplugged timbre of an electric instrument, but keep in mind, all the sound of the electric signal starts with the vibrating string, so I think these acoustic qualities are important to note, especially with broad-frequency response pickups like the Hagstrom Bisonic. The whole allure of these pickups is that they faithfully capture all of the nuances of the vibrating string (or at least as much as a passive pickup can). In my experience, the nature of string vibration directly corresponds with the resonant character of the wood of the instrument -- which can be good or bad, depending on a player's taste/preferences! I recall one Fender Precision bass that I didn't keep for very long because it had the most honky overpowering middy sound, that you could clearly hear unplugged too and which didn't go away even with a completely different set of strings. Similarly, I briefly had a Jack Casady Signature Epiphone bass that had super boomy notes in some areas of the neck and completely dead notes in others.

Anyway, plugged in, both basses offer huge, rich tones, that are clearly related, but easily distinguishable from each other -- granted the Starfire has an active resonant-filter preamp and the M85 has standard passive electronics, plus their pickups are oriented in opposite directions and the M85's pickups are slightly farther apart. That said, the barky mid-forwardness of the Starfire still comes through in comparison to the M85, which has a little more of a "scooped-mids" flavor. Both still have that lovely familiar Bisonic pickup clarity. I might add a spacer to each of the M85's pickups, just to bring them up a little closer to the strings. There are stock risers in place, but they might be a little low for my preference.

Another interesting thing to note about this bass is the impressive stiffness of the neck. A lot of times, after 53 years of string tension, you run into the need to heat-press or reset the neck. Absolutely not the case here, in fact the truss rod is practically pristine and it's actually difficult to get a "normal" amount of relief! Considering my tendency to "dig in" when a jam really gets cookin, any kind of low tension string won't really work for me on this bass, which unfortunately includes my beloved NOS Maxima flatwounds. I put on a set of Maximas but their relatively low tension barely creates any bow in the neck. Even with the truss nut completely loosened, the neck was pretty much flat. Really not a big issue though, as I always keep various extra string sets on hand. I found a nice heavy, worn-in set of D'Addario Chromes that sound excellent on this bass and the extra tension gets the perfect amount of relief. On a related note, the impressive stiffness of the neck may well result in some of that very unusual evenness of resonance and sustain across the fretboard, that I would normally only expect from some kind of carbon-fiber or aluminum neck.

Off-hand, that's all I can think of to report at the moment. Will keep adding thoughts and observations (and eventually recordings) to this thread as they come along.

Thanks again, Happy!
I'm quietly chuckling ... that kind of almost flat action is what I relentlessly strive for. Coming from the Rick world, a little fret noise etc is a welcome sound if it indicates ultra-low action.

Called to mind a quote about the clatter and clang that you'd hear if you isolated Chuck Rainey (?????) Bass tracks. Something like "it sounded like someone was out back working on a 54 Buick." I have the exact quote here somewhere.
 

fronobulax

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Called to mind a quote about the clatter and clang that you'd hear if you isolated Chuck Rainey (?????) Bass tracks. Something like "it sounded like someone was out back working on a 54 Buick." I have the exact quote here somewhere.

I remember the quote but would have searched for James Jamerson first. But fret noise and clatter are one of those things than need to be evaluated in context. At one extreme you have the opinion that it does not matter - it is part of the overall sound. At the other extreme cleanliness is next to godliness and wanna be bass gods want to have nothing to do with it.

Personally I'm kind of in the middle - when I play clatter and fret noise usually indicate a problem with setup or technique and so I will make adjustments.

I enjoy commentary like this because better players than me ask for things from their instruments that I don't even notice and so there is a chance for me to learn something. As a simple example I have no idea how flat my action is and I have yet to identify dead spots on my fretboard. That could be the instrument or set up or it could be there are just places I don't go.
 

lungimsam

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If a bass has a center block I am wondering why not opt for making a neck-thru? Maybe it's more costly to do that, seeing as you have to make wings? Not sure. But I would think it would be easier and less time consuming than making more parts you have to glue together.

It is interesting that my basses sound different unplugged and that sound cannot be replicated through the speaker. Unfortunate sometimes. Interesting phenomenon.
I like that the Guilds have sound holes. Once, on stage, during a quiet part the guitarists started an impromptu jam and all these nice bass lines popped into my head but I could not verify what key they were playing in. Any of course I didn;t want to turn up to fumble around out loud to try to figure it out. The Starfire was acoustically loud enough so I could hear myself, find the key quickly, and then turn up!! Nice feature of these Guild-with-sound-holes basses.
I also find that short scales are more tonally uniform all over the fingerboard than long scales.

That's good that you can get a flat neck. Maybe it took a set. But at least it took a set in the right direction. I bet if you keep the higher tension strings on it long enough, and in that Florida humidity, it will loosen up.

Post some sound smaples when you get some time.
 

Happy Face

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I remember the quote but would have searched for James Jamerson first. But fret noise and clatter are one of those things than need to be evaluated in context. At one extreme you have the opinion that it does not matter - it is part of the overall sound. At the other extreme cleanliness is next to godliness and wanna be bass gods want to have nothing to do with it.

Personally I'm kind of in the middle - when I play clatter and fret noise usually indicate a problem with setup or technique and so I will make adjustments.

I enjoy commentary like this because better players than me ask for things from their instruments that I don't even notice and so there is a chance for me to learn something. As a simple example I have no idea how flat my action is and I have yet to identify dead spots on my fretboard. That could be the instrument or set up or it could be there are just places I don't go.
The Rainey quip was in the context of recording techniques. Someone said they'd seen engineers mic a speaker, use a DI ...and...put a mic by the fretboard to pickup all that buzz and rattle.

I asked an engineer if that was true. He answered that he'd heard of it. We wondered if it make sense for a player using a lot of slap and pop.
 

Happy Face

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The Rainey quip was in the context of recording techniques. Someone said they'd seen engineers mic a speaker, use a DI ...and...put a mic by the fretboard to pickup all that buzz and rattle.

I asked an engineer if that was true. He answered that he'd heard of it. We wondered if it make sense for a player using a lot of slap and pop.
This is when I miss Mgod. I'm sure he would have ridiculed me on this.

I could have responded and further riled him up by pointing out that Rainey was almost as good a player as me. Just as I enjoyed tormenting him by saying things like "I'm always open to considering the opinions of the second best bass player in the group."

That aside, I do wonder how often that mic on the fretboard technique was used in recording studios.
 

JohnW63

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I like what I hear. I have only dabbled around on a bass, but my instructor plays one with 2 extra strings, so I know what they sound like in person.
 

mellowgerman

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I like what I hear. I have only dabbled around on a bass, but my instructor plays one with 2 extra strings, so I know what they sound like in person.

Thanks, John! Yeah, just like with guitar, there are seemingly infinite variations on styles, sizes, configurations, and so on. These old Guilds just give me the best tones for the type of music I like to play and they are unbelievably comfortable -- both of those points are totally subjective though and just speaking based on my own experience! Probably not everyone's cup of tea. For example, executing successful slap bass technique would be nearly impossible on this one the way I currently have it set up... but Guild even has the slappers covered with the Pilot model, which has an extra 3.25" of scale length, more of a Fender-style construction and very different pickups. Different strokes for different folks!
 
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mellowgerman

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And here's the M85 sittin' nicely in the mix at Wednesday's jam session, as captured by my little room-mic field recorder. This particular outtake is a new original tune we've just kinda been exploring, so it's far from clean and tidy, but I think it captures the vibe of the band nicely and I think the M85 fits right in!

 
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lungimsam

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Wow! Some incredible tone you are getting there. Sounds like the Maximas are on there.
 
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