Left hand cramping - what's the issue?

[jcwu]

I have a '77 CE100D that was refretted at some point, so the frets are nice and high, and it's strung with TI Bebop 12's. This guitar plays just fine for me.

Now, I also have a '58 T100. Frets are pretty low/flat/worn, but still playable, and it's strung with D'Addario something-or-other 11's. When I play this guitar, my left hand starts to cramp up. Be it chords, riffs, whatever - after a few minutes my left hand hurts a little and I don't want to play anymore.

I originally attributed it to perhaps having a tune-o-matic bridge that's a different radius than the fingerboard. Next guess was the neck width and/or string spacing, but when I compared the two guitars, they are almost the same, with the T100 just a hair narrower, and by a hair, I'm talking maybe 1/32". I didn't measure, but just eyeballing the two guitars, the neck thickness seemed about equal.

Is it the low frets that's bothering me? Is it the mojo? I really want the T100 to work well. Help?

 

[txbumper57]

I know I was very sensitive to neck differences after my recent shoulder replacement surgery. One thing I noticed on some of my guitars was although the neck depth was almost the same on the two guitars, The actual shape of the "shoulder" of the neck where it comes up to meet the fretboard made a huge difference. I had a neck that was almost squared off with the fretboard edge that started making my hand tingle and cramp up after a very short time. The neck that I was able to play for an extended period without discomfort had the same depth as the previous neck but had more of a "Roll" to the edge of the neck leading into the fretboard. Just an idea to check out. Hope this helps.

 

[NYWolf]

I know I was very sensitive to neck differences after my recent shoulder replacement surgery. One thing I noticed on some of my guitars was although the neck depth was almost the same on the two guitars, The actual shape of the "shoulder" of the neck where it comes up to meet the fretboard made a huge difference. I had a neck that was almost squared off with the fretboard edge that started making my hand tingle and cramp up after a very short time. The neck that I was able to play for an extended period without discomfort had the same depth as the previous neck but had more of a "Roll" to the edge of the neck leading into the fretboard. Just an idea to check out. Hope this helps.

I think it could be true, actually. The neck profile. I had the same problem with Starfire 3, made in Fender years, late 90's. Great guitar, but whatever shape they used on the neck just terrible for me. And all the late 90's Guild archtops I came across had the same damn neck that felt wide and flat. Now, '62 x50 I've got is perfect in all regards.

 

[Synchro]

I'm sorry to hear that, jcwu. I'm fortunate, in that I do that've any carpal tunnel or other ortho problems that affect my playing, even though I'm the ripe young age of sixty. All I can suggest is to evaluate your technique and make certain that your thumb is centered on the back of the neck and in opposition to your second and third fingers. It was hard for me to learn this technique, but I think it's helped me in the long run, because it maximizes the leverage of your hand and makes it easier to adapt to varying action height, string tension, etc.

Best wishes in getting past this soon.

 

[jcwu]

Thanks! I'll check the neck profile, and I know my left hand technique is.... poor at best.

The thing is, I have way more guitars than I can play, and this T100 is literally the first one that's given me left hand troubles. Odd. I'll report if I figure out the issue.

(I'm mostly asking, hoping someone would tell me it's not a low frets issue, so I don't have to plunk down $200+ for a refret..)

 

[fronobulax]

Neck profile for sure. Back in the day my hand would cramp up playing my roomate's Precision. I blamed it on scale length and avoided 34" scale basses for years. The Pilot cheerleaders got me to try one and no cramps. I realized it was the profile and not the scale length that caused my issues.

 

[adorshki]

I never realized how many profiles there were until I saw this in Fender's 2001 "Frontline" catalog:

Both my Westerlys are very similar to, if not actually "modern flat ovals". To me they're wonderfully "skinny" necks.
It didn't even click with me that that's why the Corona D40 felt like it had a higher and stiffer action than both of my Westerlys. But when I checked the set-up, it was spot-on Guild specs: 6/64" at 12th fret on Bass E and 4.5/64ths on treble. Nut action and neck relief all good too.
So I just called it "the Fender set-up", recalling my '80's F210 that felt the same. Good for hammer-ons and trills but a little tougher for unbarred chords up the neck.
One night I realized the neck on the D40 was actually thicker than the Westerlys, and recalled that chart and pulled it out.
The D40's closer to the "C" profile up to about the 5th fret at which point it visibly (on close inspection) bulges out slightly and becomes a more pronounced "U".
Amazing how much difference those "shoulders" can make as Txbumper mentions.
I also heartily agree with Synchro about the importance of thumb-to-fret finger geometry.
I've mentioned before it was actually the very first lesson I got from a classical teacher, the importance of holding the guitar properly to get the cleanest fingering (and thus unmuted notes). He was teaching us about ergonomics 20 years before BMW ever did.
90% of the time ever since then I play just like you see in my avatar. I won't even attempt to play anymore unless I can get a good seating position. So I never experience hand cramping although the dreadnpought bodys're starting to take a little toll between the shoulders.

 

[Synchro]

I also heartily agree with Synchro about the importance of thumb-to-fret finger geometry.
I've mentioned before it was actually the very first lesson I got from a classical teacher, the importance of holding the guitar properly to get the cleanest fingering (and thus unmuted notes). He was teaching us about ergonomics 20 years before BMW ever did.
90% of the time ever since then I play just like you see in my avatar. I won't even attempt to play anymore unless I can get a good seating position. So I never experience hand cramping although the dreadnpought bodys're starting to take a little toll between the shoulders.

You had it easy, the classically trained teacher I went to (who also played plectrum) hit my hand when I held the guitar wrong and let my thumb come over the top of the neck. When he saw my picking technique he knocked the pick out of my hand because I held that wrong too. The thing is, as extreme as his methods were, he was 100% right about technique. I followed what he said and spent the next few months learning from scratch, but I became a much better player because of it. He and I remain friends to this day.

 

[NYWolf]

You had it easy, the classically trained teacher I went to (who also played plectrum) hit my hand when I held the guitar wrong and let my thumb come over the top of the neck. When he saw my picking technique he knocked the pick out of my hand because I held that wrong too. The thing is, as extreme as his methods were, he was 100% right about technique. I followed what he said and spent the next few months learning from scratch, but I became a much better player because of it. He and I remain friends to this day.

I studied classical guitar as a kid for a while. About left hand classical position... It works great! But... only in proper sitting position. When you standing up, guitar on a strap, or even sitting with the guitar folk style, it doesnt quite work. At least for me it didnt. The wrist becomes at uncomfortable angle, i developed a pain after playing like that, until i switched to thumb over the neck style. At least for jazzy style it works great, when you avoid playing full barre chords anyway.

 

[Synchro]

I play standing most of the time and keep my thumb centered. For my purposes it's more comfortable.

 

[jcwu]

So.... I took ome measurements tonight.

'77 CE100D: 1 3/8" string spacing (I play fine on this one)
'57 T100: 1 3/8" string spacing (this one's ok too)
'58 T100: 1 5/16" string spacing (my left hand is unhappy on this one.. feels like my fingers are not meeting resistance from the strings when/where I expect to)

Just some data points to add. Maybe I'm really sensitive to string spacing. Maybe it's entirely another problem.

 

[guildman63]

Sometimes small changes in neck dimensions, or differences in body shapes and sizes will result in postural changes that occur without even noticing, so make sure your posture is the same, and is correct when playing each guitar.

 

[adorshki]

I play standing most of the time and keep my thumb centered. For my purposes it's more comfortable.

I would be ok standing only for relatively simple rhythm and scales. My acoustics are light enough for the body (and thus the neck) to move around even with the strap buttoned at the heel. It's one reason I decide to pass on putting a button on the '25.
When sitting, I have more control over body and neck position while I'm playing.
When I want to move my strumming hand for example, or move up to play scales at higher frets.
I can adjust on the fly by repositioning my feet slightly, it changes the body and neck angle smoothly.
I have to use every little trick I can to compensate for relatively small hands.
The (guitar) body angle that allows really fast strumming close to the bridge is fairly different from the one that allows the cleanest fretting if I'm playing scales way down low on the bass strings, so I'm making small adjustments most of the time anyway.
In my avatar because I'm holding the pick between thumb and forefinger but the other 3 are doing plucking, I want to get the trebles closer to 'em, so I've moved to get the top tilted in a better angle for that. It looks more tilted than it really is, though, because of the camera angle.
If I had been doing fast strumming near the bridge, the guitar'd be tucked in closer to my belly and I'd be leaning farther forward to get it into more of a vertical plane.

 

[DrumBob]

My left hand cramps up on thin necks. Last night, I played my newly acquired Tele Custom for most of the gig and was having difficulties by the third set, which means I have to alternate to a guitar with a chunkier neck, like my Firebird, with the neck that gets fatter as you go up to the 12th fret and beyond. The Tele sounded amazing though. I couldn't put it down. I'm having trouble finding guitars with fat necks, which means I may have to source out a new neck for the Tele. All Parts and Warmoth both make fat Tele rosewood board necks.

Some of the newer Epiphone Les Pauls, SGs and Dot 335 type guitars have really clubby necks. You may want to try one of those out.

 

[nielDa]

Check if your wrist angle is different on the T100 - or use a mirror or ask a friend to watch or take photos. The neck may be causing small but significant wrist changes.

 

[jcwu]

I THINK I FIGURED IT OUT!

So I noticed on the problem T100, the neck had almost no relief, maybe even backbowed. I tried to loosen the truss rod nut, but it was pretty much at the loosest it could be while still having some tension. So I loosened the truss rod nut all the way, pulled off the washer, then tuned the strings up a whole step, and let the guitar sit for a few days like that. Then I tuned back to standard tension, and now there's relief, but the action is now too high. Brought the action down, and now my left hand is much happier with some relief in the neck.

Looking back, this seemed to make sense since I was experiencing the kost discomfort around the 5th to 7th frets, which if there was backbow, that would be where the strings would be closer to the frets than my fingers are expecting them to be.

I'll give it a few days, but hopefully this takes care of this problem. And thanks to everyone who chimed in along the way! (Yes, I will start paying attention to my thumb position....)