Is this bridge lift significant?

[fronobulax]

I'm not buying into "they were built that way to minimize glue runout," or if they were it indicates a manifacturing process that was out of control. It would also mean they left the factory like that.

You don't have to buy it but New Hartford did. I also heard what @The Guilds of Grot did.

The problem was gluing a bridge on to a finished surface. Not finishing the surface was the best solution in terms of how long the bridge stayed stable and in place. Once that was decided glue runout was an obvious problem to address but it was not at the root of the process.

 

[dreadnut]

If I wanted to perfect a manufacturing process to eliminate glue runout it wouldn't include leaving a gap at the bottom of the bridge.

 

[davismanLV]

That's not the ONLY reason to do it. Masking off and finishing after the bridge is glued down creates difficulty in the leveling and buffing of the finish. That harsh joining of the bridge to the soundboard and then finishing up to the edge is trouble. Creating a small area of overlap around the outside of the bridge gives you a nice clean look, makes leveling and finishing much easier and better, and allows adequate gluing surface without worry of glue squeezing out. There are many reasons to do it that way. There's plenty of surface area (sans the maybe 1/8th inch or less around the edge) to make a good, strong glue joint with the top. You're talking like Guild was a huge manufacturing FAILURE that allowed all these defective guitars to go out into the world, and that's not the case. I'm sure if there was a better way to do it, they'd have done it. That's my thinking.

 

[fronobulax]

If I wanted to perfect a manufacturing process to eliminate glue runout it wouldn't include leaving a gap at the bottom of the bridge.

I'd be interested in hearing your alternative and figuring out if your solution is better or just creates a different problem. While I have a fair amount of respect for your technical opinions you haven't really made a case that your manufacturing knowledge really applies to this specific case with guitars.

Remember the process was designed to attach a bridge to a guitar. Glue run out was a side effect. Perhaps an analogy to drugs or medical treatment - a good doctor and patient choose the best option that solves the problem and if there are more than one, look at side effects. But most cancer patients choose between chemo, radiation or both based on how well they work on the cancer and not how much hair they will have afterwards.

 

[dreadnut]

Well, to Tom's point,, most Guilds did not get shipped this way. So i doubt this was standard operating procedure. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[davismanLV]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think that's what we're trying to do, but it isn't working...... Anyway, I've said my piece. And counted to ten. I'm done with this.

 

[wileypickett]

Well, to Tom's point,, most Guilds did not get shipped this way. So i doubt this was standard operating procedure. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Hey Dread,

It's the gospel truth, my man!

Those of us who took one of the Guild factory tours at New Hartford, CT (I attended three of the four) can confirm that this is indeed the way Guild did it. They pointed it out as part of the tour and explained their reasoning for doing it.

We saw the bottoms of bridges pre- being glued down; there was an approximate 1/16" bevel around the entire perimeter of the bridge to precisely mate with the thickness of the lacquer finish footprint, which extended approximately 1/16" within the perimeter of the bridge.

This was (they said) so the work would appear clean as a whistle. (I don't think it had anything to do with glue squeeze-out as Guild's glue applications at New Hartford were so precisely regulated that there was little or no squeeze-out.)

I'm not sure when they started doing the bevelling, but sometime after Westerly, as the bottoms of Westerly bridges are flat all the way across. (The lacquer still extended under the perimeter of the bridge; they just didn't compensate for it at Westerly.)

They probably began doing it whenever they began using CNC machines, as that beveled area was thinner than paper, just enough to match the thickess of the lacquer.

Anyone take any pics during the tours?

Glenn

 

[GardMan]

Just before I joined LTG (15 years ago next June), I noticed that I could slide the edge of a piece of paper under the back edge and wings of the bridge on my '72 D-35... about the same amount as in the guitar in the OP. It concerned me, so I took it down to a local tech that had been recommended to me. I pointed out the issue, and asked if he thought I should have the bridge removed and reglued.

He said there was no reason... the bridge was solidly attached to the top, and explained the whole "Guild attached the bridge after the finish, and there's always a little bit at the edge that isn't glued down because glue won't stick to finish..." thing. He mentioned I should "Just keep an eye on it..."

Not long after joining LTG, I started taking my Guild's (by then I had four... see what joining LTG does!) to another local tech, and I took my D-35 in for a new bone nut, bone saddle, and setup, and also asked his advice re: the "bridge lift." He agreed it wasn't really an issue, and again explained how Guild glued bridges down after the top was finished. But, then while I watched, he diluted a little Tightbond and worked it into the gap with his finger, and cleaned the excess from the top with a damp cloth... saying, it wasn't so much to hold the bridge on, as it was to keep me from sticking a piece of paper under the bridge every time I played it!

I don't know if my D-35 came like that (with the tiny gap) from the factory, but that bridge hasn't moved a hair in the last 14.5 years, and I don't expect it to move in my lifetime...

 

[SFIV1967]

If I wanted to perfect a manufacturing process to eliminate glue runout it wouldn't include leaving a gap at the bottom of the bridge.

Martin guitars ship the same way. There is this repair video from the Martin Custom Shop repair people I posted a few times already where they re-glue a bridge on John Mayers stage guitar (very high end model). Watch when they start removing the bridge and jump to minute 1:40 when he prepared the space for reglueing the old bridge. There is a huge amount of laquer still under the old bridge all around. It's just the way manufacturers like Martin and Guild do it in the factory. And that Martin as I said is a custom shop stage guitar made for John Mayer, not a low end model.



Ralf

 

[adorshki]

Well, to Tom's point,, most Guilds did not get shipped this way. So i doubt this was standard operating procedure. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

"You're wrong."

It was standard operating procedure although I don't think they started beveling the bridges until New Hartford.

The real problem isn't that the glue won't stick to the lacquer, it's that the bond between glue and lacquer is stronger than the bond between the lacquer and the wood, and the bridge would inevitably pull off if it wasn't bonded to bare wood.

So the bridge glue patch was always a little bit smaller than the bridge outline to achieve a very clean edge.

And yes that "lift" pictured is about the same depth as that on my F65ce, which has also remained stable for 20 years now, just like Gardman's D35.

 

[dreadnut]

So you're saying that a gap between the bottom of the bridge and the top was standard on Guilds?

 

[geoguy]

Perhaps the layer of glue was thicker than the lacquer layer, so the bridge wasn't sitting high above the soundboard.

 

[adorshki]

So you're saying that a gap between the bottom of the bridge and the top was standard on Guilds?

It happens when the bridge is pulled slightly away from the top, whether from string tension or top bellying behind bridge, then the glue pulls the lacquer away with it, creating that gap.

Explained by Hans years ago. How deep it goes helps determine whether it's just the "glue overlap" problem or genuine bridge lift. Another differenc is how big the gap is: if you can fit something like a business card into it, that's a problem. Should only be able to slip something as thin as light weight ("20 lb" or maybe 24 lb) copy paper in there.

But the standard procedure was to finish the guitar first, leaving an unfinished area to glue the bridge to.

I'm guessing that perhaps the heavier builds used thicker tops and perhaps those don't flex as much, lowering the occurrence. Could be why you never saw it on your D25.

Just for kicks, check your D15M. Oh wait, mahogany's very dimensionally stable so might not show it either.
Ok, ask your son to check the DV52, that one's top may be thin enough.

 

[dreadnut]

I actually had that fixed on my DV52, my tech at Elderly popped the bridge off and re-glued it down flat. No glue issues.

45 year old D25M and 33 year old D15 - no gap.

 

[wileypickett]

That the bridges on your guitars are tight to the top is good; that's exactly the way they were when they left the factory.

That doesn't mean the bridges are glued down to their very edges. Unless someone reglued them so that they are glued to the edges, they probably aren't.

There is about a 1/16" area around the perimeter of the bridge that is not glued down. Likewise, the top lacquer extends a corresponding 1/16" under the edge of the bridge. That tiny area around the perimeter of the bridge is not glued to the lacquer.

I'm not sure when Guild started building guitars this way, but sometime during the Westerly era. So far as I know, that build design continued at every factory thereafter, at least to New Hartford. They may stll be building them this way at Oxnard, I don't know.

You may be having trouble with the word "gap" -- the bridge should be tight to the top; you shouldn't be able to slide anything under the bridge; there shouldn't be a gap. A intentional gap between the bridge and top was not built into the design.

The fact that you can't find one on either of your guitars, after however many years now, is good -- you may never encounter this problem. Be thankful!

When you (not just you, but anyone) can slide something under the edge of the bridge -- and it will invariably be under the back edge behind the bridge pins -- it will likley be because the top has begun to belly behind the bridge, a somewhat common occurence.

That's when this gap that has been mentioned will appear. You may not be able slip anything under the bridge with the strings off, but when tuned up, you may.

How big or small a gap will depend on how much bridge lift there is, and that will depend on how much the top has bellyed over the years.

I don't know how many Guilds I've owned over the years, but lots. I'd say about a quarter of them had some bridge lift issues when I got them. So I'm speaking from some expereince.

You could argue that not gluing the bridge fully to the top, all for appearance sake, is a weakness in the design as it may more readily allow the bridge to eventually lift where it's not glued down.

But however you feel about it, it has been, for a long time now, "The Guild Way."

Hope this helps?

 

[dreadnut]

Wiley, best explanation I've heard during the course of this discussion. Now that makes sense to me.

A couple years ago at GC they had a beautiful Gibson Jumbo with the moustaches bridge; upon closer inspection I saw that there were substantial blobs of glue that had oozed out from both sides of the bridge onto the gutar's top. When I showed this to the guy working the floor he had a classic response: "Huh." Point being it made it's way through the factory, through QC, to GC, and was hung up in their showcase until I pointed out the defect to someone. Pretty lame for a guitar they were asking almost $3K for.

 

[West R Lee]

I have owned my D25 since 1979. As a kid in his early 20's, I didn't have a clue about guitar care, so I took that sucker on a summer campout, and if we left the campsite, I'd lock her up in the trunk. Sometimes we'd be gone all day, and the temps were probably approaching 100 degrees. Who knows, maybe 150 degrees in the trunk of the car. When I returned home I noticed the bridge had lifted maybe 1/16th of an inch. She's been that way for 40 years and hasn't moved since.

West

 

[adorshki]

I have owned my D25 since 1979. As a kid in his early 20's, I didn't have a clue about guitar care, so I took that sucker on a summer campout, and if we left the campsite, I'd lock her up in the trunk. Sometimes we'd be gone all day, and the temps were probably approaching 100 degrees. Who knows, maybe 150 degrees in the trunk of the car. When I returned home I noticed the bridge had lifted maybe 1/16th of an inch. She's been that way for 40 years and hasn't moved since.

West

Now that's a bridge lift! Was it also humid? Heat and humidity is a double whammy in softening hide glue.

I suspect maybe the glue softened up a bit, so bridge lifted a bit, but when it cooled back down to normal temps, the glue stabilized again. With the lift.

How ya doin' Jim?

 

[cutrofiano]

... saying, it wasn't so much to hold the bridge on, as it was to keep me from sticking a piece of paper under the bridge every time I played it!

That's the point - love it

 

[West R Lee]

Now that's a bridge lift! Was it also humid? Heat and humidity is a double whammy in softening hide glue.

I suspect maybe the glue softened up a bit, so bridge lifted a bit, but when it cooled back down to normal temps, the glue stabilized again. With the lift.

How ya doin' Jim?

I'm good. How are you Al? I retired June 1 and have been enjoying life and my first biological grandson. A little guitar, a bit of hunting, a little travel, and a lot of golf. Yes sir, that would be my guess to a tee. Melted glue and then it rehardened and stabilized. That guitar sits in my music room today, just like that.....same bridge lift it always had. Now if i had a bridge lift in a climate controlled environment, well that would be a different story........I'd fix it.

West